Envoy
05-09-2018, 09:35 PM
#8321
New Hire
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by mdot
The vast majority of PPs were hired at American Eagle Airlines, the largest regional in the world, and the only one doing AA's regional flying. We had an 18 year contract in place that was very competitive. We had 7 bases, and in 2010-2011 we were hiring like crazy. It was somewhat similar to how you talk about a 2016-hire in terms of this being a decent place to be. Enter BK and the USAir takeover and even in the face of (very real) threats to "Comair" us, we still said no to concessions. PSA comes along and stabs us in the back, and we suffer 5 base closures, a concessionary contract, airplanes going to PSA, and a whole bunch of stuff that saw a 3,300 strong pilot group whither down to around 1800 or so.
This is all around the time Pinnacle voted in one of the worst contracts imaginable. The world was a much different place, and we did what we could to make it through the rough times. But this industry is cyclical. We'll see if you're right about that 2016-hire come the next downturn. But something tells me they too will "demonstrate a willingness to accept the worst", if god forbid this industry even vaguely resembles what it did just 6 or 7 years ago.
This is all around the time Pinnacle voted in one of the worst contracts imaginable. The world was a much different place, and we did what we could to make it through the rough times. But this industry is cyclical. We'll see if you're right about that 2016-hire come the next downturn. But something tells me they too will "demonstrate a willingness to accept the worst", if god forbid this industry even vaguely resembles what it did just 6 or 7 years ago.
05-10-2018, 04:04 AM
#8322
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: Right Seat - Low Wing
Posts: 229
Originally Posted by ienvoy
Keep in mind that a very significant number of the people hired since 2016 are career changers. These are people that flew on the side and had other primary careers. They intentionally held out because pay and QOL at the regionals were terrible. If this industry reverts back to what it was these people will just get out.
05-10-2018, 04:34 AM
#8323
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,649
Originally Posted by ienvoy
Keep in mind that a very significant number of the people hired since 2016 are career changers. These are people that flew on the side and had other primary careers. They intentionally held out because pay and QOL at the regionals were terrible. If this industry reverts back to what it was these people will just get out.
05-10-2018, 04:48 AM
#8324
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,649
Originally Posted by skytrails
All these millennials crack me up thinking they should get bigger and bigger pay checks but not wanting to put in any effort what so ever in their job. Its a JOB people. working conditions at a JOB aren't always all sunshine and rainbows. Blows my mind people are doing everything in their power to NOT upgrade. Maybe its a good thing actually since the thought of these kids being in the left seat is scary as hell.
Maybe a lot of you should have went for a different career. Everyone has to pay their dues at some point in this career. For a lot of you it'll be in the left seat instead of the right like it used to be for everyone.
Maybe a lot of you should have went for a different career. Everyone has to pay their dues at some point in this career. For a lot of you it'll be in the left seat instead of the right like it used to be for everyone.
1. Family. I certainly don't want to upgrade at a time when forced upgrades to LGA are on the table, or even Miami for that matter. I live on the west coast and losing another day a week with my family because I have to go to the other side of the country isn't something I want to do right now.
2. Pay. I had a successful career prior to this so the jump in pay isn't enough to make me want to give up QOL, sorry but it is the truth. I can survive just fine with the FO pay and my savings/investments. Now, I am not normal in this regards, but I am not the only one either.
3. Just not ready. Perhaps someone just doesn't feel ready to be a Captain at 1000 hours. This isn't me, but I imagine it could be a reason for some. Forcing someone into this position is wrong, plain and simple.
4. None of your damn business. Kinda of speaks for itself, but last time I checked this is a free country and if I don't want to seek a promotion, I shouldn't be forced into it. It shouldn't matter if you feel I am stupid or not, it is a choice that the person needs to make for themselves.
All I am trying to illustrate here is that there are reasons, legitimate reasons, why someone may not want to upgrade. Calling them spoiled, millennials or ignorant isn't the approach I would take.
Anyway, to each their own.
05-10-2018, 05:08 AM
#8325
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 1,609
Originally Posted by Cyio
Give me a break. I am NOT an millennial and in fact have one of my own. There are many reasons people may choose to slow down the rate at which they upgrade.
1. Family. I certainly don't want to upgrade at a time when forced upgrades to LGA are on the table, or even Miami for that matter. I live on the west coast and losing another day a week with my family because I have to go to the other side of the country isn't something I want to do right now.
2. Pay. I had a successful career prior to this so the jump in pay isn't enough to make me want to give up QOL, sorry but it is the truth. I can survive just fine with the FO pay and my savings/investments. Now, I am not normal in this regards, but I am not the only one either.
3. Just not ready. Perhaps someone just doesn't feel ready to be a Captain at 1000 hours. This isn't me, but I imagine it could be a reason for some. Forcing someone into this position is wrong, plain and simple.
4. None of your damn business. Kinda of speaks for itself, but last time I checked this is a free country and if I don't want to seek a promotion, I shouldn't be forced into it. It shouldn't matter if you feel I am stupid or not, it is a choice that the person needs to make for themselves.
All I am trying to illustrate here is that there are reasons, legitimate reasons, why someone may not want to upgrade. Calling them spoiled, millennials or ignorant isn't the approach I would take.
Anyway, to each their own.
1. Family. I certainly don't want to upgrade at a time when forced upgrades to LGA are on the table, or even Miami for that matter. I live on the west coast and losing another day a week with my family because I have to go to the other side of the country isn't something I want to do right now.
2. Pay. I had a successful career prior to this so the jump in pay isn't enough to make me want to give up QOL, sorry but it is the truth. I can survive just fine with the FO pay and my savings/investments. Now, I am not normal in this regards, but I am not the only one either.
3. Just not ready. Perhaps someone just doesn't feel ready to be a Captain at 1000 hours. This isn't me, but I imagine it could be a reason for some. Forcing someone into this position is wrong, plain and simple.
4. None of your damn business. Kinda of speaks for itself, but last time I checked this is a free country and if I don't want to seek a promotion, I shouldn't be forced into it. It shouldn't matter if you feel I am stupid or not, it is a choice that the person needs to make for themselves.
All I am trying to illustrate here is that there are reasons, legitimate reasons, why someone may not want to upgrade. Calling them spoiled, millennials or ignorant isn't the approach I would take.
Anyway, to each their own.
05-10-2018, 05:24 AM
#8326
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 62
Originally Posted by Cyio
3. Just not ready. Perhaps someone just doesn't feel ready to be a Captain at 1000 hours. This isn't me, but I imagine it could be a reason for some. Forcing someone into this position is wrong, plain and simple.
4. None of your damn business. Kinda of speaks for itself, but last time I checked this is a free country and if I don't want to seek a promotion, I shouldn't be forced into it. It shouldn't matter if you feel I am stupid or not, it is a choice that the person needs to make...
4. None of your damn business. Kinda of speaks for itself, but last time I checked this is a free country and if I don't want to seek a promotion, I shouldn't be forced into it. It shouldn't matter if you feel I am stupid or not, it is a choice that the person needs to make...
05-10-2018, 06:36 AM
#8327
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Position: Resigned
Posts: 1,547
Originally Posted by ienvoy
Keep in mind that a very significant number of the people hired since 2016 are career changers. These are people that flew on the side and had other primary careers. They intentionally held out because pay and QOL at the regionals were terrible. If this industry reverts back to what it was these people will just get out.
I think it might actually be the majority, at least for NHs over about age 25.
If they've got you by the short hairs because all you know how to do is fly your perspective is going to be radically different from someone who came from typing emails very slowly 8 hours a day. This job isn't that great unless you absolutely love flying, and at a certain point for most people it stops being worth it.
05-10-2018, 06:44 AM
#8328
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 640
Originally Posted by Pedro4President
Why is it that if an FO bids reserve he is hurting pilot group but if the company misuses 15G4 it's ok?? 15G4 was to fill an unused vacancy in reverse seniority. 15G4 doesn't give the company the ability to force FOs to upgrade when they have a 1000 hours. But that's a different story.
An FO bidding reserve to avoid upgrading is NOT hurting the pilot group and is just following the contract to maximize their QOL. Everyone does what ever they can in order to maximize their QOL. It's like blaming pilots that DTS their vacation this summer on exacerbating the staffing issue this summer.
An FO bidding reserve to avoid upgrading is NOT hurting the pilot group and is just following the contract to maximize their QOL. Everyone does what ever they can in order to maximize their QOL. It's like blaming pilots that DTS their vacation this summer on exacerbating the staffing issue this summer.
This guy gets it........^. Also a senior fo bidding reserve probably lives in base and allows another junior commuter to get a commutable line that much sooner
05-10-2018, 06:49 AM
#8329
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 640
Originally Posted by ytumama
Let’s not make this about something tge really isn’t the complaint. I promise you that if you got an upgrade then went to the office and told them that you were not safe or ready to upgrade they’d listen. No corporation could afford the liability of putting someone in charge of a flight that did not feel safe being there. Can you imagine the headlines if there was an accident? Or the NTSB/FAA action? It’s a cop out. This whole thing is about people that don’t want to go to LGA, nothing more. Safety concerns are a red herring.
Your type rated already. What happens is that you go to forced upgrade and if you don’t pass your fired.
05-10-2018, 09:33 AM
#8330
New Hire
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
Not to stir the pot, but a point does need to be made regarding the bickering we’re seeing between the “old timers” and “millennials.” This of course was inevitable and I’ve seen it occasionally on a small scale ever since I’ve been here.
Although it’s true that a small number of these millennials might be getting demanding, such as wanting seniority numbers before showing up for class (with the cadet program I believe?) - the fact is that the majority of millennials are the reason for the increases in pay, QOL, and movement. This not only includes the “career changers” but also thousands of kids who chose not to be pilots because of what they heard and saw.
If the regionals can always get a steady supply of ERAU/AF/ATP Pilots while offering $20k/yr starting pay and constant threats of getting fired and how you’re disposable then guess what...they’re going to keep doing that and no union is going to help, as was demonstrated.
Don’t get me wrong, QOL at your typical white collar job isn’t all rainbows and unicorns. 8 hour days and 5 day work weeks don’t exist anymore. Being told you’re disposable and cost too much is a thing there as well. But the reason it has become that way is because people stay and are too passive. You do have to speak up, which pilots have been historically good at, but you also have to talk with your feet.
Regarding “defensive bidding” although it’s true that maybe only 20% of FOs are at 700+ hours and bid reserve every month to avoid the upgrade, there are far more FOs that are just spreading it out over a longer period of time. These are guys that simply stayed on reserve for months after they were able to hold a line once they lived in base, or who bid a month of reserve after a month or two of flying a line. There are many reasons for this, maybe they’re just taking it easy, maybe they still have one foot in their previous career, maybe it’s family, maybe they would rather be a senior FO living in base rather than a junior captain if **** hits the fan. It frankly doesn’t matter. If one thing has been made clear over the last 20, and especially the last 10 years, it’s that no employer gives two ****s about you and you have to look out for yourself.
Although it’s true that a small number of these millennials might be getting demanding, such as wanting seniority numbers before showing up for class (with the cadet program I believe?) - the fact is that the majority of millennials are the reason for the increases in pay, QOL, and movement. This not only includes the “career changers” but also thousands of kids who chose not to be pilots because of what they heard and saw.
If the regionals can always get a steady supply of ERAU/AF/ATP Pilots while offering $20k/yr starting pay and constant threats of getting fired and how you’re disposable then guess what...they’re going to keep doing that and no union is going to help, as was demonstrated.
Don’t get me wrong, QOL at your typical white collar job isn’t all rainbows and unicorns. 8 hour days and 5 day work weeks don’t exist anymore. Being told you’re disposable and cost too much is a thing there as well. But the reason it has become that way is because people stay and are too passive. You do have to speak up, which pilots have been historically good at, but you also have to talk with your feet.
Regarding “defensive bidding” although it’s true that maybe only 20% of FOs are at 700+ hours and bid reserve every month to avoid the upgrade, there are far more FOs that are just spreading it out over a longer period of time. These are guys that simply stayed on reserve for months after they were able to hold a line once they lived in base, or who bid a month of reserve after a month or two of flying a line. There are many reasons for this, maybe they’re just taking it easy, maybe they still have one foot in their previous career, maybe it’s family, maybe they would rather be a senior FO living in base rather than a junior captain if **** hits the fan. It frankly doesn’t matter. If one thing has been made clear over the last 20, and especially the last 10 years, it’s that no employer gives two ****s about you and you have to look out for yourself.
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