CBA 2015 Lessons learned
04-01-2019 | 11:08 AM
#151
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 20
From: Crewmember
If by "we" you mean ALPA, I say again, no. It's not our union's job to rat out its members to the company. Nothing these pilots are doing is specifically prohibited in our contract or any company rules of which I'm aware. Are they violating the spirit of some of the provisions? (recycling OTP or using a collective effort to grab trips and re-distribute them within their pack) - Absolutely. But that's a vague standard that clearly the company is not interested in using to curtail this activity. An individual getting insider information from schedulers, especially if there's tangible favors involved, is probably crossing a line the company would be far less tolerant of. But proving that is probably not worth the potential fallout in terms of legal, justifiable methods of investigating that behavior versus benefit.
You're naive if you think they aren't fully aware of what's going on. The trips are getting flown and really, that's all that matters to them in the end. If ALPA decides to make this stop, it has to be done using negotiated language that defines acceptable limits. Pro-standards and our union leadership then have firm ground to stand on to police our own without getting management involved. It's a slippery slope when our own union starts getting involved in compiling data on its members for use by the company. I really don't think we want to go that direction, IMO.
You're naive if you think they aren't fully aware of what's going on. The trips are getting flown and really, that's all that matters to them in the end. If ALPA decides to make this stop, it has to be done using negotiated language that defines acceptable limits. Pro-standards and our union leadership then have firm ground to stand on to police our own without getting management involved. It's a slippery slope when our own union starts getting involved in compiling data on its members for use by the company. I really don't think we want to go that direction, IMO.
They should be stopped, either by the union, or the company, I don't care.
What they are doing violates the professional standards and conduct clause of ALPA membership.
We should not tolerate this kind of conduct, and if it takes working with the company to stop it, than I am all for it.
They have been warned, I am told, but continue to screw their fellow crew members. Should we tolerate that? No!
If it were up to me, they would be disciplined and stopped from being able to game the system.
ALPA has been told about this, yet they do nothing. The company knows about it, yet they do nothing.
Why isn't something done?
04-01-2019 | 04:54 PM
#153
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 0
From: 757 Capt
04-01-2019 | 06:15 PM
#154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,174
Likes: 1
CBA 2015 Lessons learned
If by "we" you mean ALPA, I say again, no. It's not our union's job to rat out its members to the company. Nothing these pilots are doing is specifically prohibited in our contract or any company rules of which I'm aware. Are they violating the spirit of some of the provisions? (recycling OTP or using a collective effort to grab trips and re-distribute them within their pack) - Absolutely. But that's a vague standard that clearly the company is not interested in using to curtail this activity. An individual getting insider information from schedulers, especially if there's tangible favors involved, is probably crossing a line the company would be far less tolerant of. But proving that is probably not worth the potential fallout in terms of legal, justifiable methods of investigating that behavior versus benefit.
You're naive if you think they aren't fully aware of what's going on. The trips are getting flown and really, that's all that matters to them in the end. If ALPA decides to make this stop, it has to be done using negotiated language that defines acceptable limits. Pro-standards and our union leadership then have firm ground to stand on to police our own without getting management involved. It's a slippery slope when our own union starts getting involved in compiling data on its members for use by the company. I really don't think we want to go that direction, IMO.
You're naive if you think they aren't fully aware of what's going on. The trips are getting flown and really, that's all that matters to them in the end. If ALPA decides to make this stop, it has to be done using negotiated language that defines acceptable limits. Pro-standards and our union leadership then have firm ground to stand on to police our own without getting management involved. It's a slippery slope when our own union starts getting involved in compiling data on its members for use by the company. I really don't think we want to go that direction, IMO.
I don’t think something has to violate the contract for the union to do something about it if the membership believes the behavior is a detriment to the membership. Anyway, not that big of a deal to me either way. Like I said, I can count the number of times on my hands that I’ve picked up a trip. I was just suggesting a possible solution seeing that this BOT issue can only be dealt with by or with management. I certainly agree it can be dealt with by negotiating something that can be used to police it but inevitable it’s going to require a software upgrade to prevent a BOT from doing its thing. Also, we don’t have to be in section 6 to negotiate something. ALPA and management can negotiate this right now if they wanted to. However it’s done, if pilots feel it’s an issue, it needs to be resolved and it can only be done with the help of management.
04-01-2019 | 08:02 PM
#156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,626
Likes: 0
However, I had someone --- leaving it at that --- who claims they personally investigated a number of pilots who were suspected of using BOTs. They collected all of the data on the pilots' schedules. Some of these pilots' were picking up trips even while they were airborne. The information was turned over to company and it fell on deaf ears.
I know the above story is all hearsay, but I heard it first person ... and the person who told me the story had the ability to do what they said they did.
04-01-2019 | 10:42 PM
#157
Proponent of Hysteria
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 5
From: "Part of the problem." : JL
I have a friend who’s wife picks up trips for him while he’s flying, sleeping, whatever.
This was back when we had the e-grid paper thing, but there’s still nothing illegal/immoral/contract violating about keeping your soft-token app on a dedicated “work phone”, and leaving that at home.
You take your iPad on the road which lets you log in without the token app, and leave your work phone for your wife to pick up trips. This isn’t something I’d be a fan of but I’m sure some guys do exactly this
Edit: Im not defending guys who use bots, if that is happening it needs to be stopped by the company. But you can’t compare timestamps to was the guy in flight or not because that doesn’t prove he was using a bot
04-01-2019 | 11:02 PM
#160
Proponent of Hysteria
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 5
From: "Part of the problem." : JL
Probably pretty easy to have a buddy or neighbor who works for us if you live in MEM or ANC too. “Hey bud, I’m going on a trip and I’ll be in the middle of a 12 hour leg when open times released. Can I leave my phone with the entrust app at your place, and if you have time can you log in for me and submit a request for these couple of trips? I’ll owe you a bottle. Thanks man!”
You could be correct that is written down someplace you are NEVER to give out your login password to ANYONE, even another employee....
But I doubt a guy who lets his wife or bud pick up trips for him while hes on the road would even care. Seems to me the company doesn’t care either since none of these Wolfpack guys have ever been disciplined.
You might be surprised how little some companies care about certain rules. My buds at the passenger carriers manipulate their schedules in flight all the time; they use the on-board WiFi. obviously they aren’t supposed to be doing while flying. Know how many of them have been called by their chief pilots for doing that? How many have been called by the FAA? Zero.
Last edited by skypine27; 04-01-2019 at 11:38 PM.
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