Scope: FDX vs. UPS
03-11-2023, 09:22 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Crewmember
Posts: 1,381
Originally Posted by Merle Haggard
This is 100% correct.
The good folks at Hack's have shown their hand too early. If we (ALPA) ignore what we've seen we are collective idiots and will reap the consequences.
We must open scope.
The good folks at Hack's have shown their hand too early. If we (ALPA) ignore what we've seen we are collective idiots and will reap the consequences.
We must open scope.
03-11-2023, 09:25 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Crewmember
Posts: 1,381
Originally Posted by kronan
I think Delta went quicker than that.
well, thought it took 6-9 months but an interweb search found a rejected July 2015 and approved December 2016. But I think pay rates were retro to Jan 1 2016 for Delta. Timing benefits of a corporation running calendar year books versus the fiscal year we use. As an example, a TA we reach in March could have an effective pay rate back to last summer.
Don’t think Delta had reached their 1 year amendable anniversary during that set of negotiations though.
As TonyC explained quite awhile ago, true retro pay would require amending the investment reports/taxes which is why signing bonuses are more typical.
well, thought it took 6-9 months but an interweb search found a rejected July 2015 and approved December 2016. But I think pay rates were retro to Jan 1 2016 for Delta. Timing benefits of a corporation running calendar year books versus the fiscal year we use. As an example, a TA we reach in March could have an effective pay rate back to last summer.
Don’t think Delta had reached their 1 year amendable anniversary during that set of negotiations though.
As TonyC explained quite awhile ago, true retro pay would require amending the investment reports/taxes which is why signing bonuses are more typical.
03-11-2023, 09:48 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by coryk
I don’t believe, nor do I assume the rest of us want or need every sectioned reopened. I’m simply saying that the goal posts have shifted. What was a priority 2-3 years ago, is now old news. We have new threats, namely the massive hole in section 1 that you could drive a truck thru. There’s a reason it is section ONE. If we cannot improve that language, nothing else matters.
We don’t have a TA, and nothing is preventing the NC from opening that section again. The company has been very up front about their plans for the future of the network, (DRIVE, Network 2.0).
If it takes an another 6 months, a year, etc, to secure job protections for all FedEx pilots. Then so be it.
I see your angel though. I’m curious, when do you retire?
We don’t have a TA, and nothing is preventing the NC from opening that section again. The company has been very up front about their plans for the future of the network, (DRIVE, Network 2.0).
If it takes an another 6 months, a year, etc, to secure job protections for all FedEx pilots. Then so be it.
I see your angel though. I’m curious, when do you retire?
We didn't open scope. Many of the items mentioned in the last few weeks wouldn't be protected under any scope language. We were wet leasing airplanes in 2020, 2021, and 2022. So, why weren't you screaming about scope then?
Last edited by pinseeker; 03-11-2023 at 10:07 AM.
03-11-2023, 10:20 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,219
Originally Posted by pinseeker
Not sure why it matters, but I retire in about 15 years. How junior are you?
We didn't open scope. Many of the items mentioned in the last few weeks wouldn't be protected under any scope language. We were wet leasing airplanes in 2020, 2021, and 2022. So, why weren't you screaming about scope then?
We didn't open scope. Many of the items mentioned in the last few weeks wouldn't be protected under any scope language. We were wet leasing airplanes in 2020, 2021, and 2022. So, why weren't you screaming about scope then?
The remakes made by our CEO and CFO are very clear. A goal of DRIVE is to shed costs, thus network 2.0– and the company’s to use more 3rd party lift. What we’re seeing in Europe right now could easily begin happening in Asia.
Tell me gain scope doesn’t matter.
03-11-2023, 10:52 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Originally Posted by pinseeker
So why are you wasting time? We are not opening any other sections. We are not going back and renegotiating any TA'd sections. If you want a full rewrite, then you need to start recalling reps to get a majority who support your position. You will also have to make sure that those reps have a large number of members. At that point, mediation will end because we have started over. We are no longer just stuck and in need of mediation. The NMB will tell us to come back after we have made genuine attempts to negotiate the new sections we have opened. Don't take this as a "we can't do it" response, that is not what it is intended to be. I'm simply saying that if you want to change the direction and open up all sections of the contract, it will require a new MEC. Waiting to vote on a TA that you know you will vote NO for is simply wasting time.
Originally Posted by Tuck
that parts probably not true. If we vote down a TA, we aren’t going extra innings we’re going back to home plate. We will absolutely have to replace the NC and most likely most of the MEC reps and officers. That will take time. We don’t have a bunch of people lining up to take those jobs and regardless of how you think about Pat, he is incredibly qualified and will be tough to replace. Delta did it in under a year but they have 2x as many pilots to draw from and a bunch stronger union than us. Still worth it if it’s a lousy TA but it will not just be “extra innings”
Originally Posted by pinseeker
We didn't open scope. Many of the items mentioned in the last few weeks wouldn't be protected under any scope language. We were wet leasing airplanes in 2020, 2021, and 2022. So, why weren't you screaming about scope then?
Last edited by FXLAX; 03-11-2023 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Clarity
03-11-2023, 12:00 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 795
Originally Posted by pinseeker
Not sure why it matters, but I retire in about 15 years. How junior are you?
We didn't open scope. Many of the items mentioned in the last few weeks wouldn't be protected under any scope language. We were wet leasing airplanes in 2020, 2021, and 2022. So, why weren't you screaming about scope then?
We didn't open scope. Many of the items mentioned in the last few weeks wouldn't be protected under any scope language. We were wet leasing airplanes in 2020, 2021, and 2022. So, why weren't you screaming about scope then?
In 2020, 2021, and most of 2022 the seniority list was growing as fast as training would allow. Block hours were at an all time high.
By December of 2022 senior leadership was espousing the financial benefits of outsourcing lift.
ALPA failed to educate the pilot group on the holes in Section 1 despite knowing well the threats that existed.
Job protection should not be subject to polling mandates.
Last edited by UnusualAttitude; 03-11-2023 at 12:12 PM.
03-11-2023, 12:31 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by Tuck
they actually have NOT said beating DAL is the goal - I wish they would. They have said on one hand the delta TA has made it more expensive for the company but then on the other hand they (our NC) is not changing their ask on pay rates and absolutely do not like comparisons to delta.
03-11-2023, 02:37 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 1,804
Originally Posted by kronan
Nope, Kronan is on here as Kronan. But Kronan very seldom bothers to peruse these threads. Or visit this website. You're welcome.
03-11-2023, 02:50 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 152
Originally Posted by opt0712
They literally say in the openers, industry leading payrates. So, obviously our ask on payrates has increased. Asked this very question at AOC the other day.
Oh and I absolutely think we need to restart negotiations at this point and open all sections, especially scope. Company made us look like fools with this "focused negotiations" crap. Time to cut our losses and get the real negotiations started.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
