DLax85

I take it you've studied the SWA chart closely. It seems you are about to say the quiet part out loud. You've proferred an interesting question, but you (we) must ask ourselves the corollary question: So everyone on the 757 should get less than industry rates to protect our binary WB/NB pay scales?

It appears to me there are multiple solutions to ensure each of our jets get industry standard rates...or above. Which will we choose?

In Transparency, Integrity, and Unity (for Everyone),
DLax

Moosefire

like the profit sharing we don't have?

JustInFacts

Just to clarify some items here, UPS doesn't get that rate until September 1 2024. This year, our (Fedex) min guarantee is 901 hours.

So, in 2024, UPS min guarantee is approximately $372,000 and our pay rate would have to be about $413 per hour to match.

Now, looking at the yearly pay thread, you say you are a WB captain making 6th year pay. You also said your yearly BLG was 1022 and you sold back about 50 (40%) hours of vacation. As a junior captain who had RLG for 75% of the year, yoor BLG was 15.6% higher than min and your total compensation was 21.3% higher than min. You did that while only being away from home for about 6 days a month according to your post. So how would that compare to someone hired at UPS in 2018? According to the UPS forum, you would still be an FO, years away from holding captain.

Whose contract do we want? If we took UPS's contract, we would be making more than a Delta pilot, but wouldn't we be giving concessions such as deadheading on company aircraft? What about Delta's contract. Wouldn't we be accepting PBS?

Why are we fixated on the highest rate? Isn't total compensation what we are after? Your post shows that a captain at UPS is guaranteed more than a captain at United or Delta, yet they will make almost $70 per hour less. If this was presented in a road show, people would be screaming about the fuzzy math.

JustInFacts

Well, what are those solutions? How do we keep the 767 and Airbus paying the same as the 777 and MD11 and get the 757 up to industry standard? What is industry standard for the 757, Delta rates, SWA rates, or UPS rates? Does the rest of the fleet get the same percentage increase as the 757?

Viper25

While technically accurate that Delta’s line-holder minimum guarantee is 65 hours per month, other contractual mechanisms (TLV and ALV) means that the de facto monthly minimum is around 70 hours.

DLax85

Let's Go Big to Small.

Does our union or Fedex want to go to a single pay scale model like UPS?
There are both benefits and downsides to this pay model.

Does SWA fly the 757?
Easy answer - No. And we should have never agreed to pay the 757 at 727/737 rates.

What's the industry standard for 757 pay?
Easy answer - specifically outlined in my original post.

Top-of-Scale Captain - Jan 2024:
American (A321neo/XLR) - $374.36
Delta (757) - $374.36
United (757) - $374.36


Top of Scale - First Officer - Jan 2024
American (A321neo/XLR) - $255.69
Delta (757) - $255.69
United (757) - $255.69

How do we keep 767 & Airbus paying the same as 777 & MD11?
Well, now that gets interesting. There's multiple questions and answers here.

Does the rest of the fleet get the same percentage increase as the 757?
Great question. But was that ever our goal, or just what we've done in the past?

Is it OK if the 757 guys get a slightly bigger, initial percentage increase vs 767/A300/777/MD11, if that's what it takes for everyone to be paid industry standard rates?
I'd argue Yes - absolutely. The WB jets would still get paid more. The 767/A300 could still be lumped in with othe others.

The problem was created in the 2006 contract when we traded mythical A380 rates for substandard 757 rates. Let's not kid ourselves, in Aug 2006 the company knew they were selecting the 757, not the 737. The 757 announcement came almost immediately after the CBA became effective on Nov 1, 2006.

Should that be rectified now? .....especially in the era of the MBCB Plan where "every year counts"?
The mentality, and promise of - "Dont worry about 757 pay, you'll retire off wide body pay" no longer holds true. High 5 will be gone for new hires. If "every year counts", then let's ensure that "every year" and "every aircraft and every seat" is paid at industry standard rates. One's retirement is based on it! Even more true, when you consider those early MBCB Plan contributions are the ones that will compound/grow the most, over the longest time period.

It is these type of changes, and details, which can make TA2.0 truly more equitable --- and is within the confines of the limited areas we are negotiating in the next 4 months.

You want TA2.0 to pass at greater than 70%? ....fix the underpayment of 757 rates now.

In Transparency, Integrity and Unity (for Everyone),
DLax

JustInFacts

First, let's clear this up. I am not against the 757 paying the same rate that it pays at Delta. My questioning is more along the lines of the argument to get that rate. When we go into negotiations, we have to have justification for our asks. The company asks for that. The NMB asks for that. We ask the same of the company. So, as I cautioned, be careful what you ask for, ie, industry standard rates.

You keep saying that we should have industry standard pay rates. That is one of your justifications for 757 pay. Well, industry standard would make our 767's and Airbuses pay the same as the 757. Is that what you want? How do you convince the mediator that we deserve industry standard on the 757 when we agreed to classify that airframe as a NB in 2006, but say that we don't want that to apply to the 767 and Airbus. You said there are multiple solutions to solve this issue, yet haven't presented any solutions.

The other argument you make is that if we give up the A plan, then every dollar counts. I think that is a more solid argument, however, it requires giving up the A plan for all new hires. Is that what we want, an increased A plan for current pilots, and some other DC/MBCBP for all new hires in exchange for higher 757 rates?

If we get further down the road with the NMB, and get released, these are things we will have the present to the PEB. Things get more dicy after that.

Precontact

Why not just make the single pay rate like we have here at UPS? One second order effect to this would be that folks waiting years for training slots would be pay protected, and maybe some would stay content flying the 757 (or its successor, probably another narrowbody).

Freight

Because a lot of people here think that will bring down all our rates. I’d argue it wouldn’t and would save the company quite a bit of money in training costs. More people would be willing to stay on it for the seniority bump if pay was the same. But, at the end of the day, the biggest problem is people who never plan on going to the 75 don’t care about those rates.

BlueAvi8tor

I say we forget the A plan bump this time. Use the extra money for pay rates and signing bonus. We can deal with the A plan later.