Justinfacts is making a valid point that many of you seem to want to connveniently ignore. If this next TA is now about matching or exceeding industry pay rates no matter what, then the specifics in that goal DO matter. Like it or not, our goals require justifcation and logic with the NMB involved and really any time during section 6 negotiations. If the DL/UA/AA A350 rates are the only acceptable target for our 777 rate, then what is the logic that allows us to ignore the fact that those same airlines don't pay that rate to their 767-300 pilots?
Do you really think our NC (regardless of who that might be) is going to be able to get in front of the company and the NMB and demand DL A350 pay for every FedEx WB pilot?
Connect the dots for me on that. We're going to use the industry as a benchmark, but only the parts that we like?

 

Yes asking for industry standard could give us PBS. Company would jump on that for industry pay rates. Then we would be fat another 500+ pilots.

 

This is so easy. We’ll just index off of UPS and beat their pay rates by 2%. That makes the top rate $396. We just need to move to one rate. All WB. And match their guarantee. 975 hours per year.

Thats the equivalent of $437/hour at min BLG of 884. I think if we can get the 757 to WB, the crew force would be willing to accept that it’s less than industry leading.

It also has the dual benefit of comparing us only to UPS, because we have a lot of the crew force that thinks it’s inappropriate to compare us to legacy peers.

 

I made no judgements on what rates to use. I was simply trying to make the point that it doesn't matter that we can upgrade at 5 years and UPS cannot. Rates are rates and they should be industry standard at the very least regardless of how many pilot would be at the 5 year captain pay rate. We don't choose the fleet nor can control pilot age/retirement demographics which are the driving factors in upgrade time.

But if I was going to make the case, it would be that our previous contracts banded all of our WBs to everyone else's top paying aircraft. That's why our WB pay rate has been about the same as everyone else's 777 even though those other airlines had lower pay rates for their 767s and A300. So why does management get to make the convinient argument that it should be different now? In reality, we've had three pay rates: WB + BKO (777,MD11), WB (767,A300), & NB (757,737). If there was going to be a change (other than maybe a single blended rate ala IPA), it would be to band the 757 to our WB rate just like industry standard, WB rate meaning everyone else's top paying aircraft, just as in the past.

Industry standard also includes profit sharing of 10% pre-tax up to $2.5B and 20% pre-tax above $2.5B, and cash over cash, and 8 holiday pay days, and retro of 4/4/14/first pay raise, and snap up provisions, and training pay of 5 hours a day, and full B fund contributions during LTD, and no cap on LTD, and no offsets on LTD, and 1:3.5 duty rig, and hotels during CQ and sub, and scope that protects extraterritorial flying and belly freight assurances. That doesn't include reserve rules and I can keep going on other items as well. How much far behind do we have to get before you stop using the PBS excuse? The fact we are line bidding is one of about three things we may be ahead on.

 

I have already covered this in this thread. The reason why we don't have a seperate 777 payrate is because the company's argument in 2015 was that "we are already paying our MD11/767/A300/777 pilots more than what DL pays their 777 pilots, we're not going to give the 777 guys even more."

To allow the company to now pay our 767/A300 guys less than industry leading widebody pay would be giving up that position that we successfully held in previous contracts.

 

Wht did you cherry pick everyones contract? Delta get 4:15 per training day. Jury is out on the retro pay raise. Belly freight and extraterritorial flying is all smoke and mirrors by other carriers, they are doing the same thing we are. I have had multiple times when a UPS can was loaded onto my flight. Snap up looks good, how about when they start to snap down. Got to make a profit to share it.

 

Delta training day is now 5:00 / day for recurrent.

Its 3:05 per day during a full course, including over days off, for a total of 90 something hours (trainings lasts about a month.

 

just asked a delta friend just told me it was 4:15 did it just go up with the contract or on jan1?

 

Yes it’s from the new contract, and Jan 2024. Increased rates at DOS for 4:15 through 2023. 5:00 after 1/1/2024.

 

I didn't cherry pick anything. Everything I wrote is industry STANDARD, not industry leading. Meaning that AA, DA, and UA all have those things. And that includes Delta's training pay which is now 5 hours a day. For what we do, we should be industry LEADING and I should be cherry picking those items. But I thought listing industry standard items woulb be an easier sell to you and others that always seem to take the other side's side.

As for scope, IPA has language in their contract that protects extraterritorial flying. Even the IBT has this at Atlas! The IPA also tracks belly freight so that if it gets to a certain volume, it gets moved by UPS aircraft. I think even 2 pilot cockpit is standard now as well. And I also forgot about medical privacy/freedom.

Why are you even argueing against what we should get even if all of that was industry leading? Are you not a pilot here that wants these things? Keep in mind that out of all those items we are below standard only pay rates, retro and medical privacy will be part of the next TA. We have to live with the new contract for another 4+ years unless they make the duration more than the industry standard 4 years.

Again, ALL the items I listed are standard that AA, DA, UA have. The scope items I mentioned are also industry standard. Nothing I mentioned are industry leading items.

Edit, just read your other posts about delta training pay. Please go look at UALPA's latest contract comparison. It shows everything I just mentioned. Please educate yourself on how far below standard we are. Like I said, not having pbs may be only one of about three items were we lead. Everything else is below standard or barely standard.