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03-15-2025 | 06:35 AM

#121

BoilerUP

Doing One Pilot's Job

Joined: Sep 2005

Posts: 7,891

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I'm not familiar enough with how volume flows around the UPS European netowrk to confirm or refute anything, as volume is what dictates cabotage - not necessarily aircraft movements.

I do know IPA pilots operate EMA-CGN, as well as CGN-CDG.

03-15-2025 | 07:42 AM

#122

EMBFlyer

Gets Weekends Off

Joined: Oct 2005

Posts: 2,515

Likes: 66

From: MD-11 FO

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoilerUP

I'm not familiar enough with how volume flows around the UPS European netowrk to confirm or refute anything, as volume is what dictates cabotage - not necessarily aircraft movements.

I do know IPA pilots operate EMA-CGN, as well as CGN-CDG.

Neither are our pilots, but that doesn't stop them!

03-15-2025 | 08:43 AM

#123

max8222

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Joined: Aug 2006

Posts: 1,357

Likes: 133

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoilerUP

Cabotage is the right to operate, not do business.

03-15-2025 | 09:32 AM

#124

BoilerUP

Doing One Pilot's Job

Joined: Sep 2005

Posts: 7,891

Likes: 130

Quote:

Originally Posted by max8222

Cabotage is the right to operate, not do business.

"To operate" doesn't mean flying airplanes Point A to B - it means moving revenue (volume) Point A to B.

8th/9th freedoms represent "cabotage routes" based on movement of revenue, 5th/7th freedoms do not.

03-15-2025 | 10:09 AM

#125

max8222

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BoilerUP

If morning star has to operate those routes due to volume restrictions why can’t your 767 fly the routes with the same volume?

03-15-2025 | 10:43 AM

#126

Busflyer

On Reserve

Joined: Sep 2006

Posts: 119

Likes: 0

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustInFacts

Can you provide the source that will corroborate this information?

So why are there MorningStar 767's flying UPS freight in Europe? Doesn't UPS fly 767's? What did Fedex have to agree to for the EU to approve the purchase of TNT? How would their scope fair if the EU required Fedex to keep all ASL pilots in order to aquire TNT? What are the details of the case the OP is talking about? $13.9 million is really that much compared to our 2022 and 2023 wetlease penalty payments.

Star Air flies some routes due to cabotage. CGN-MUC and CGN-CDG-TLS are two of them off the top of my head.

03-15-2025 | 11:31 AM

#127

Cowpoke

On Reserve

Joined: Mar 2023

Posts: 83

Likes: 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoilerUP

Thanks for the honesty friend. So, there is some amount of freight carried by those Star Air 767s that does not fall under cabotage rules, and could be flown by UPS pilots. We have to be a little careful about waving shiny objects around folks over on our campus. There’s a story about something you have, that they would love to have, and are willing to give quite a bit to get it. It’s a compelling story, but unfortunately not true. At least to the extent that it’s advertised. It is knowable whether or not UPS is contracting large amounts of flying in Europe that UPS pilots could otherwise be performing. It is also knowable how much UPS pilots are receiving in scope penalties for this flying. Seems like we would want our union reps to get together on this one and sort out the relevant details.

03-15-2025 | 12:07 PM

#128

max8222

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Busflyer

Star Air flies some routes due to cabotage. CGN-MUC and CGN-CDG-TLS are two of them off the top of my head.

I have flown CDG MUC FRA on our 777

Also CDG CGN CDG on a 777

So which is cabotage applies for different carriers same country?

03-15-2025 | 12:33 PM

#129

jetlaggy

maxing the min/Moderator

Joined: Aug 2005

Posts: 1,615

Likes: 21

From: 757

Quote:

Originally Posted by max8222

I have flown CDG MUC FRA on our 777

Also CDG CGN CDG on a 777

So which is cabotage applies for different carriers same country?

Flying MUC to FRA doesnt make sense. Did you have cargo or repositioning?

UPS flies to CGN CDG on 767 and 747. Its whats added on to that makes the difference

03-15-2025 | 12:50 PM

#130

max8222

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jetlaggy

Flying MUC to FRA doesnt make sense. Did you have cargo or repositioning?

UPS flies to CGN CDG on 767 and 747. Its whats added on to that makes the difference

Cargo clean up flight for left over freight on Saturday