No no no.

This is now all about your collection of SMEs who is going to get us the best possible contract ever, with Frontier as current bar.

How laughable.

I mean, I'm still at a loss for how the prior NC just wasn't letting a SME in the room, but the somehow once loyal remaining NC member is just going to save the day?

If JN wasn't in charge of the NC, who was? And now, why is it OK that he's now in charge.

That's all just score keeping, EMBFlyer. You people hijacked this train, and now you own it, to include the complete capitulation you people are going to sell as TA1.000000001. TA1 with "the best scope we could negotiate, and look at these sub Delta rates and 1990s work rules guys! You'll get get them in 3 years!"

 

what language is this?

 

Acecrackpot, No one in the MEC was allowed to talk to JG except the five. They were running the show and if you didn’t agree with their losing plan then you were cut out of everything.

 

So anything on the horizon that further erodes QOL or job protection, or anything else that if fought to keep/improve would put a dollar of pension increase at risk, is a boogeyman… got it.

 

Nope, But only crying about it without a plan is boogeyman talk.

ANC just put out an eye opening letter for all you who only believe the five.

 

Here is what I think. I think that you and I would agree on 95% of the issues. Maybe some light between us on what should be prioritized.

The strategy is what differs. I think the messenger (NC Chair) should respond to the company’s actions in proportion to their actions. This isn’t Fred’s company anymore. They have removed goodwill. This is our first contract since COVID. Do you feel they have adequately recognized our effort for that time? No. They do everything for a reason and they are sending us a message that things aren’t what they used to be. The sooner we realize that the better. We are UPS now. And in my opinion, the company has chosen to live by the sword. So if we are going to win, the company has to die by the sword.

They have made us pay for their decision to hire too many pilots because of greed in COVID. They have made us pay by manipulation into 4. A. 2. c. They tried to make us pay for an increased pension through weakened scope and lower pay rates. They are willing to cut corners, pass the bucks, outright lie, and short shrift us to billions in buybacks. Do you know why? Because they see us as a doormat. They walk all over us and laugh. Well, I would rather have my dignity than a few extra bucks. Yes, I know how that sounds. But I believe we can make them respect us. We only deserve what we fight for. I intend to pass on a better career to those who come behind me. That’s really all I care about. I would rather drag this out and have them show some respect than vote yes on an extra $40K in a retirement pension.

This brings me back to strategy. The company is willing to sling any mud they can. They have been vindictive to current employees and those that resigned for greener pastures. I need my NC Chair to smell blood because that’s what we’re up against. Not someone that wants a quick deal. If AB holds the line on student lines and negotiates for full back pay on 4A2c, I will come hating in hand and say I was wrong. But I don’t sense a backbone there. Again. I hope I’m wrong. I just think we deserve an NC Chair that will fight for us. I hope he’s it.

As far as a plan, the NMB told JG to call when he had a plan. He did that. That’s all he can control. He can’t make someone not retire from a job. He’s willing to direct deal with the company. The NMB and the company are pulling against him. That’s not his fault.

With his proposal, the pension would average a whopping 1.42% increase per annum the last 26 years. In 2015, the top Delta pay rate was $271. They had a 14% DC capped. That year it was limited to $265,000. A max benefit of $37,100 per year. Next year they will have a top rate of $488 and 18% DC uncapped. That’s a total benefit of $87,000. That’s 8.19% per year increase. If we had that rate of return we’d be asking a pension valued over $300K per year. They are annihilating us. And we say we’re asking for too much. It’s absurd on its face. And this entirely post Great Recession and 9/11 and anything else you wan to blame it on.

To say we’re asking for too much is to play into the company’s hands and make their arguments for them. They’re going to have to hire. Everyone will be hiring next year. It’s only a matter of time before they cry uncle. I don’t want it to have to be this way. But it’s like in the Middle East. They don’t respond to diplomacy. They only respond to power and strength. And we have to be willing to send that message. And I don’t believe AB is the person to do it.

 

I don't know were you got your numbers, but Delta had a 15% DC plan in 2015. You are also not comparing apples to apples. Heck, you are even comparing apples to oranges, more like apples to coconuts. You are using the top rates as if everyone gets them, when in reality, less than 15% get them. You only look back 10ish years for Delta, but 26 years for us. Well, since you want to go back that far for us, let's look at some of the other big 3.

In 2000, United pilots signed a contract that had the highest wide body rate during that contract at $355/hr. They also had a DB plan that used the highest 3 years for FAE and no cap on FAE along with an 11% DC plan. Their contract was considered the gold standard. At the same time, Delta had a DB plan along with a 5% DC plan. Fast forward, they lost their DB plans and now have a COC DC plan that tops out at 18% next year. So, have they really increased their retirement in the last 26 years, no. If you take United's top pay rate and fast forward it to now, that is an average of a 1.3% increase per year.

Regarding 4a2c, you imply that JG would get us back pay. What makes you think that. He was the NC the last time we were in 4a2b. We were in it for much longer than we have been in 4a2c and there were no buy ups to keep line spreads from being to far apart. Guys were taking a much bigger hit then than they are today. So, how much back pay did he negotiate then, $0.

You think we are owed for our work during COVID. So, the fact that pilots were falling over themselves to extend or draft to go to China and bragging about their large pay checks deserves even more reward? The same thing happened domestically. I remember an 3rd year FO I was flying with bragging about how he was going to make over $300k that year. Then he was mad that I called in fatigued because he wanted the FAR extension pay and the planned extra duty period pay that we would have gotten if we had flown the revised schedule. So, greed went both ways.

I get that you are mad. Don't let that blind your judgment. That is exactly what the company wants. They would be happy to let this case go to arbitration, wait for the arbitrator to make a ruling, and hopefully win like they did last time. The worst that would happen is that they lose and have to pay back the lost BLG. So, if that is what you are demanding, why would the company want to speed it up when they very well might win just enough not to have to pay any back pay. If that happens two years from now, how much more pay would be lost? So, let's see what they come up with. Let's try to look at it as business and not personal. Let's not put our mad ahead of our money.

 

Let me break the news to you! The company hasn’t respected the pilots since pre Tigers merger.

So f you want respect out of them tough luck. They would fire you in a heart beat and never look back, You are just another number to move freight.

What has changed is their ability to recover lost freight because of a plane not moving. Before one plane sitting on the ramp was a big deal. Not anymore, multiple can not move now and they don’t flinch in the morning meeting.

 

Then what was the MEC Chair doing?

 

If there was no interest from the company to negotiate, JG was on a fool's errand. The company wanted to find a collection of people willing to capitulate, er, I mean, "give a little to get a little."