Heads up international deviators
12-29-2015, 08:52 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 711
Originally Posted by Some guy
Here are the exact details:
Booked on Cathay LAX-HKG in "C" class (lie flat); accepted fare: $3948
First is available at $8975
If I deviate and travel from my local airport to HKG the cheapest fare I can find is $4600 (non-refundable).
I realize that GT didn't sign the contract, but they are told by management how to interpret it. I went to CE for clarification, and they confirmed that is the way the Company is interpreting that section and they have already filed a grievance. Not sure what the PAC, skeds, Fleet Capt or CP can do for me but am willing to try.
Additionally let me quote from the NC Notes (underline/color added for emphasis):
"Flat Bed seats and Class of Service: A number of pilots perceived the potential for reduced deviation banks. We want to make it clear that this is not the case. Section 8.A.5.c.vi. (p. 120 of your TA) provides that your deviation bank will be credited with the Baseline Fare for the highest class of service which is authorized on the scheduled deadhead flight, and which exists on that flight. This rule has not changed."
I don't care how people voted because we can't change that. However I am extremely angry at the NC and blame them for this because they assured us it would not happen. For commuters the preservation of deviation banks is a huge benefit. The fact that we have let the Company do as they please with accepted fares after the last contract, and now this even before the ink has dried on our current contract is UNACCEPTABLE.
It appears that for "lie flat seats" we gave up our deviation bank plus having to work an extra day in order to meet the new 18 hr check-in requirement. Can't wait to see how the Company interprets the rest of the contract!
Booked on Cathay LAX-HKG in "C" class (lie flat); accepted fare: $3948
First is available at $8975
If I deviate and travel from my local airport to HKG the cheapest fare I can find is $4600 (non-refundable).
I realize that GT didn't sign the contract, but they are told by management how to interpret it. I went to CE for clarification, and they confirmed that is the way the Company is interpreting that section and they have already filed a grievance. Not sure what the PAC, skeds, Fleet Capt or CP can do for me but am willing to try.
Additionally let me quote from the NC Notes (underline/color added for emphasis):
"Flat Bed seats and Class of Service: A number of pilots perceived the potential for reduced deviation banks. We want to make it clear that this is not the case. Section 8.A.5.c.vi. (p. 120 of your TA) provides that your deviation bank will be credited with the Baseline Fare for the highest class of service which is authorized on the scheduled deadhead flight, and which exists on that flight. This rule has not changed."
I don't care how people voted because we can't change that. However I am extremely angry at the NC and blame them for this because they assured us it would not happen. For commuters the preservation of deviation banks is a huge benefit. The fact that we have let the Company do as they please with accepted fares after the last contract, and now this even before the ink has dried on our current contract is UNACCEPTABLE.
It appears that for "lie flat seats" we gave up our deviation bank plus having to work an extra day in order to meet the new 18 hr check-in requirement. Can't wait to see how the Company interprets the rest of the contract!
For FCF (discounted first, business, full first) the choice between discounted first and business was at the discretion of the company.
Do they still show these codes on the pairings you are referencing?
12-29-2015, 09:10 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
Originally Posted by Some guy
Additionally let me quote from the NC Notes (underline/color added for emphasis):
"Flat Bed seats and Class of Service: A number of pilots perceived the potential for reduced deviation banks. We want to make it clear that this is not the case. Section 8.A.5.c.vi. (p. 120 of your TA) provides that your deviation bank will be credited with the Baseline Fare for the highest class of service which is authorized on the scheduled deadhead flight, and which exists on that flight. This rule has not changed."
We need to NOT let this go, and raise holy Hell, because this one seems obvious. If our CE guys just lay down on this one, perhaps we should consider firing them, and getting someone else who is willing to do the job.
It doesn't seem like there is anything that can be interpreted differently on the deviation bank issue.
12-29-2015, 09:17 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
This is exactly why I said during the ratification process that ALPA's roadshows were not nearly as valuable as a company NC roadshow would be. I'm serious.
Next contract, we should demand a roadshow from management's NC, where questions pertaining to new/revised language can be questioned. Only one reason the company would not agree to that.
Next contract, we should demand a roadshow from management's NC, where questions pertaining to new/revised language can be questioned. Only one reason the company would not agree to that.
12-29-2015, 09:45 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
Originally Posted by Busboy
This is exactly why I said during the ratification process that ALPA's roadshows were not nearly as valuable as a company NC roadshow would be. I'm serious.
Next contract, we should demand a roadshow from management's NC, where questions pertaining to new/revised language can be questioned. Only one reason the company would not agree to that.
Next contract, we should demand a roadshow from management's NC, where questions pertaining to new/revised language can be questioned. Only one reason the company would not agree to that.
Apparently people are going to have to start doing what they used to, to stay in bank. Don't deviate, jumpseat into Memphis to take the scheduled flight, or don't deviate on the expensive leg, in this case--jumpseat into SFO from home. Funny how the cost of the scheduled tickets go way up when they are actually used, particularly when they are booked late, though the deviation bank won't change. If that's what you have to do to not be several hundred dollars out of pocket, it's worth it. I remember a time when everyone was jumpseating into Memphis to take the scheduled international flights that were priced at $1500/ticket, business class, and they couldn't stay within the bank. I think that must have been costly for the company.
12-29-2015, 01:08 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
Originally Posted by Some guy
Additionally let me quote from the NC Notes (underline/color added for emphasis):
"Flat Bed seats and Class of Service: A number of pilots perceived the potential for reduced deviation banks. We want to make it clear that this is not the case. Section 8.A.5.c.vi. (p. 120 of your TA) provides that your deviation bank will be credited with the Baseline Fare for the highest class of service which is authorized on the scheduled deadhead flight, and which exists on that flight.
"Flat Bed seats and Class of Service: A number of pilots perceived the potential for reduced deviation banks. We want to make it clear that this is not the case. Section 8.A.5.c.vi. (p. 120 of your TA) provides that your deviation bank will be credited with the Baseline Fare for the highest class of service which is authorized on the scheduled deadhead flight, and which exists on that flight.
Based on the previous contract language I posted regarding the Flat Bed seat satisfying the class of service, why would First class be "authorized" in this particular case. Since Flat bed was booked and was available in Business, isn't that the highest class authorized by the new contract?
That language used by the NC in their reply is for someone who didn't get the seat they should have gotten. If you ended up with a seat in economy due to availability, your bank would still be credited with the BC fare, since that was what you were "authorized". That's language from the old contract and isn't going to somehow make our deviation banks magically increase if they get us the Flat Bed seat we asked for using a business class fare.
12-29-2015, 01:09 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
trying to figure this one out...GT booked a flight in lie flat business seats. CE was called because FC discount seats were available but not booked because GT says this is the guidance they've received. And I gather GT said if you deviated, wouldn't receive the increased bank for Discounted First.
not quite sure why GT is the authority vice the PAC or an Auditor. I know I haven't had any difficulty adjusting fares higher via FOX when authorized to do so.
would seem a simple fix if you have documentation of the higher fare, in the past I've used screen captures to justify my request
not quite sure why GT is the authority vice the PAC or an Auditor. I know I haven't had any difficulty adjusting fares higher via FOX when authorized to do so.
would seem a simple fix if you have documentation of the higher fare, in the past I've used screen captures to justify my request
12-29-2015, 01:24 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by kronan
not quite sure why GT is the authority vice the PAC or an Auditor. I know I haven't had any difficulty adjusting fares higher via FOX when authorized to do so.
would seem a simple fix if you have documentation of the higher fare, in the past I've used screen captures to justify my request
would seem a simple fix if you have documentation of the higher fare, in the past I've used screen captures to justify my request
I certainly hope you are right and it's a simple fix, and not something we have to accept as the new norm...
12-29-2015, 04:23 PM
#29
Proponent of Hysteria
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: "Part of the problem." : JL
Posts: 1,053
UAL-HKG business class
Duty day 17:05
Accepted fare $3,008
You "I find a solution instead of complaining" fly boys really crack me up.
Solution?
Call global travel: "it's what the contract says".
Email CE. "The company's interpretation of that section differs from ours".
I've done both already.
Grieve it you say? Sure....have to go to work as scheduled anyway and in a year or so your grievance is denied.
Great "solutions" bud.
Duty day 17:05
Accepted fare $3,008
You "I find a solution instead of complaining" fly boys really crack me up.
Solution?
Call global travel: "it's what the contract says".
Email CE. "The company's interpretation of that section differs from ours".
I've done both already.
Grieve it you say? Sure....have to go to work as scheduled anyway and in a year or so your grievance is denied.
Great "solutions" bud.
12-29-2015, 06:01 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,196
Originally Posted by skypine27
UAL-HKG business class
Duty day 17:05
Accepted fare $3,008
You "I find a solution instead of complaining" fly boys really crack me up.
Solution?
Call global travel: "it's what the contract says".
Email CE. "The company's interpretation of that section differs from ours".
I've done both already.
Grieve it you say? Sure....have to go to work as scheduled anyway and in a year or so your grievance is denied.
Great "solutions" bud.
Duty day 17:05
Accepted fare $3,008
You "I find a solution instead of complaining" fly boys really crack me up.
Solution?
Call global travel: "it's what the contract says".
Email CE. "The company's interpretation of that section differs from ours".
I've done both already.
Grieve it you say? Sure....have to go to work as scheduled anyway and in a year or so your grievance is denied.
Great "solutions" bud.
Fortunately, someone else already demonstrated a little more initiative and the matter is already being grieved. You believe it takes a year or so to resolve a grievance? Have you tried reading Sections 20 and 21 of the contract?
But rather than exercising your contractual right to file a grievance, here's another suggestion...trying calling your fleet captain. They tend to have a little more influence than Global Travel reservation specialists. Mine just helped resolve a pay dispute I had that was worth 34 hours. I provided the details, including contractual references, and two weeks later the matter was fixed in my favor.
We've got a new contract. There is going to be a settling period to establish its proper application. Happens every time. Some people will roll onto their backs, declare defeat and happily assume the role of a victim. To quote a current commercial..."That's what they do."
In the meantime, I've got a stack of GPU certificates for United that expire 31 January. They give you a better chance of an upgrade. You are welcome to use one on your upcoming flight. PM me if you want it. No guarantees but it's free and worth a shot.
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