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Old 10-21-2018, 07:48 AM   #21  
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For clarity, what we call "Total Time" does not exist in the FAR's, and is not officially defined anywhere.

It's usually best to log that in the manner to which employers are accustomed, just to avoid confusion.

But legally it can include sim time. Or "helping with the radios" time in a single-pilot plane. Or even passenger time in an airliner if you really wanted to
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:05 AM   #22  
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Agreed.
You can log anything you like but you can’t count everything in furtherance of a certificate or rating.
I still fail to understand why a “major” would make such a fuss over something logged 10 years and three type ratings ago.
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:13 AM   #23  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
For clarity, what we call "Total Time" does not exist in the FAR's, and is not officially defined anywhere.
Total time is defined by its applicability/utility in the FAR's.
1. "Aeronautical Experience"
2. "Total Time as a Pilot"
3. "Flight Time"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.159

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev...n=14y1.0.1.1.1

For example, the aeronautical experience of a flight engineer allows 1500 hours of flight time to credit 500 hours (3:1) towards the "total time as pilot" needed for an ATP.

On the other hand, I hold a "Remote Pilot" license to pilot a UAS. The definition of flight time in Part 1 states:

"Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;"

so technically, I can pilot a drone and log it in a logbook as flight time. However, this aeronautical experience doesn't have any applicability towards "Total Time as a Pilot" for additional ratings.....at least at this time.

Last edited by 155mm; 10-21-2018 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:18 AM   #24  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 155mm View Post
Total time is defined by its applicability/utility in the FAR's.
1. "Aeronautical Experience"
2. "Total Time as a Pilot"
3. "Flight Time"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.159

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev...n=14y1.0.1.1.1

For example, the aeronautical experience of a flight engineer allows 1500 hours of flight time to credit 500 hours (3:1) towards the "total time as pilot" needed for an ATP.

On the other hand, I hold a "Remote Pilot" license to pilot a UAS. The definition of flight time in Part 1 states:

"Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;"

so technically, I can pilot a drone and log it in a logbook as flight time. However, this aeronautical experience doesn't have any applicability towards "Total Time as a Pilot" for additional ratings.....at least at this time.
Your "total" of "pilot time" or "flight time" would be defined in the FAR.

But there's no definition of "Total Time" such as it is typically recorded in your logbook. Mine happens to be FAR flight time, with all sim in a separate column. You could include sim (of any sort) in "Total Time" and some people do.
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Old 10-21-2018, 11:02 AM   #25  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Your "total" of "pilot time" or "flight time" would be defined in the FAR.

But there's no definition of "Total Time" such as it is typically recorded in your logbook. Mine happens to be FAR flight time, with all sim in a separate column. You could include sim (of any sort) in "Total Time" and some people do.
The three terms:
1. "Aeronautical Experience"
2. "Total Time as a Pilot"
3. "Flight Time"
are mentioned in the FAR's with only "Flight Time" defined in FAR Part 1 "General definitions" key word being general. However, "Total Time as Pilot" is mentioned in the FARs and it is defined in detail in regards to its "legal" applicability toward a rating, recency of experience, etc.

Last edited by 155mm; 10-21-2018 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 11:27 AM   #26  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
But legally it can include sim time. Or "helping with the radios" time in a single-pilot plane. Or even passenger time in an airliner if you really wanted to

"(c)Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part."

"(j)Aircraft requirements for logging flight time. For a person to log flight time, the time must be acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft under § 61.5(b)"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.51

Since the logbook is a legal document for demonstrating fulfillment of FARs, I would not treat it as a journal as you suggest. If the flight time is not relevant to your professional career, keep separate logbooks/journals for drone time, "radio operator time", "passenger time", etc. Make no mistake, it is a Legal document!
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:35 PM   #27  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 155mm View Post
"(c)Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part."

"(j)Aircraft requirements for logging flight time. For a person to log flight time, the time must be acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft under § 61.5(b)"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.51

Since the logbook is a legal document for demonstrating fulfillment of FARs, I would not treat it as a journal as you suggest. If the flight time is not relevant to your professional career, keep separate logbooks/journals for drone time, "radio operator time", "passenger time", etc. Make no mistake, it is a Legal document!
I disagree. Only time that's needed to meet FAR requirements for ratings, certs, privileges, or currency needs to be logged. Many older airline pilots don't log anything at all (currency records are maintained by the company). Many older non-airline pilots only log what they need for currency. As long as you don't try to pass it off as something it's not, the FAA doesn't care.

Only the part that's applicable to FAA requirements is a legal document, and I think they can only hold it against you if YOU try to represent the logged time for FAA requirements. Ie, I don't think they could subpoena your logbook and violate because something was logged improperly unless you used that logged time to fool the FAA.

Ie, they can't grab your logbook and violate you because it shows you weren't instrument current. What if you kept another logbook?

Employers might care however, often depends on the person doing the logbook review (who might have a particular opinion).

Last edited by rickair7777; 10-21-2018 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:50 PM   #28  
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https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...61_11&rgn=div8

Quote:
Pilot time means that time in which a person—

(i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device; or

(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id....1_11&rgn=div8

Quote:
Crewmember means a person assigned to perform duty in an aircraft during flight time.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id....1_11&rgn=div8

Quote:
Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...61_15&rgn=div8
Quote:
§61.5 Certificates and ratings issued under this part.
(a) The following certificates are issued under this part to an applicant who satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the certificate sought:

(1) Pilot certificates—

(i) Student pilot.

(ii) Sport pilot.

(iii) Recreational pilot.

(iv) Private pilot.

(v) Commercial pilot.

(vi) Airline transport pilot.

(2) Flight instructor certificates.

(3) Ground instructor certificates.

Quote:
(b) The following ratings are placed on a pilot certificate (other than student pilot) when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the rating sought:

(1) Aircraft category ratings—

(i) Airplane.

(ii) Rotorcraft.

(iii) Glider.

(iv) Lighter-than-air.

(v) Powered-lift.

(vi) Powered parachute.

(vii) Weight-shift-control aircraft.

(2) Airplane class ratings—

(i) Single-engine land.

(ii) Multiengine land.

(iii) Single-engine sea.

(iv) Multiengine sea.

(3) Rotorcraft class ratings—

(i) Helicopter.

(ii) Gyroplane.

(4) Lighter-than-air class ratings—

(i) Airship.

(ii) Balloon.

(5) Weight-shift-control aircraft class ratings—

(i) Weight-shift-control aircraft land.

(ii) Weight-shift-control aircraft sea.

(6) Powered parachute class ratings—

(i) Powered parachute land.

(ii) Powered parachute sea.

(7) Aircraft type ratings—

(i) Large aircraft other than lighter-than-air.

(ii) Turbojet-powered airplanes.

(iii) Other aircraft type ratings specified by the Administrator through the aircraft type certification procedures.

(iv) Second-in-command pilot type rating for aircraft that is certificated for operations with a minimum crew of at least two pilots.
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:13 AM   #29  
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https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.51

"§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
Link to an amendment published at 83 FR 30277, June 27, 2018.
(a)Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(b)Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:

(1) General -

(i) Date.

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a full flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.

(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device, as appropriate.

(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by § 91.109 of this chapter.

(2) Type of pilot experience or training -

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

(v) Training received in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.

(3) Conditions of flight -

(i) Day or night.

(ii) Actual instrument.

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.

(iv) Use of night vision goggles in an aircraft in flight, in a flight simulator, or in a flight training device.

(c)Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(d)Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

(e)Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided -

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation -

(1) Preflight preparation;

(2) Preflight procedures;

(3) Takeoff and departure;

(4) In-flight maneuvers;

(5) Instrument procedures;

(6) Landings and approaches to landings;

(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;

(8) Emergency procedures; and

(9) Postflight procedures;

(C) The supervising pilot in command holds -

(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and

(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.

(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

(f)Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

(g)Logging instrument time.

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.

(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of § 61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook -

(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and

(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.

(4) A person may use time in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate or rating provided an authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.

(5) A person may use time in a full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for satisfying instrument recency experience requirements provided a logbook or training record is maintained to specify the training device, time, and the content.

(h)Logging training time.

(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:

(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and

(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

(i)Presentation of required documents.

(1) Persons must present their pilot certificate, medical certificate, logbook, or any other record required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by -

(i) The Administrator;

(ii) An authorized representative from the

National Transportation Safety Board
; or
(iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.

(2) A student pilot must carry the following items in the aircraft on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of the required authorized instructor clearances and endorsements -

(i) Pilot logbook;

(ii) Student pilot certificate; and

(iii) Any other record required by this section.

(3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights.

(4) A recreational pilot must carry his or her logbook with the required authorized instructor endorsements on all solo flights -

(i) That exceed 50 nautical miles from the airport at which training was received;

(ii) Within airspace that requires communication with air traffic control;

(iii) Conducted between sunset and sunrise; or

(iv) In an aircraft for which the pilot does not hold an appropriate category or class rating.

(5) A flight instructor with a sport pilot rating must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights when providing flight training.

(j)Aircraft requirements for logging flight time. For a person to log flight time, the time must be acquired in an aircraft that is identified as an aircraft under § 61.5(b), and is -

(1) An aircraft of U.S. registry with either a standard or special airworthiness certificate;

(2) An aircraft of foreign registry with an airworthiness certificate that is approved by the aviation authority of a foreign country that is a Member State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation Organization;

(3) A military aircraft under the direct operational control of the U.S. Armed Forces; or

(4) A public aircraft under the direct operational control of a Federal, State, county, or municipal law enforcement agency, if the flight time was acquired by the pilot while engaged on an official law enforcement flight for a Federal, State, County, or Municipal law enforcement agency.

(k)Logging night vision goggle time.

(1) A person may log night vision goggle time only for the time the person uses night vision goggles as the primary visual reference of the surface and operates:

(i) An aircraft during a night vision goggle operation; or

(ii) A full flight simulator or flight training device with the lighting system adjusted to represent the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise.

(2) An authorized instructor may log night vision goggle time when that person conducts training using night vision goggles as the primary visual reference of the surface and operates:

(i) An aircraft during a night goggle operation; or

(ii) A full flight simulator or flight training device with the lighting system adjusted to represent the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise.

(3) To log night vision goggle time to meet the recent night vision goggle experience requirements under § 61.57(f), a person must log the information required under § 61.51(b)."
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:48 AM   #30  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
I disagree. Only time that's needed to meet FAR requirements for ratings, certs, privileges, or currency needs to be logged. Many older airline pilots don't log anything at all (currency records are maintained by the company). Many older non-airline pilots only log what they need for currency. As long as you don't try to pass it off as something it's not, the FAA doesn't care.

Only the part that's applicable to FAA requirements is a legal document, and I think they can only hold it against you if YOU try to represent the logged time for FAA requirements. Ie, I don't think they could subpoena your logbook and violate because something was logged improperly unless you used that logged time to fool the FAA.

Ie, they can't grab your logbook and violate you because it shows you weren't instrument current. What if you kept another logbook?

Employers might care however, often depends on the person doing the logbook review (who might have a particular opinion).
I guess you can make an argument that for non FAA required entries, your logbook falls under freedom of speech. Although, a "sloppy logbook" with odd ball entries is in my opinion not a good idea! As for me, I'll hang my hat on what the FAR's say. This is especially important for pilot's in the stage of their careers when their logbooks will face certain scrutiny ie: Interviews, additional ratings, etc.
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