Wanting career change at 39-how long to major
02-07-2011, 08:20 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 229
Panz,
Funny you should mention that. I'm turning 40 moving from a technical job - aerospace engineering - with pay the same as you to an airline job and my wife is a nurse (also a DAL FA). I went to the regionals 3 years ago and got furloughed a year and a half ago. For that year and a half I went back to my technical job and rebuilt my devastated finances. Here are my thoughts:-
1) Flying a plane beats a contract technical job any day (except for pay at the moment)
2) There is an amazing sense of achievement flying in difficult weather, pulling off great approaches and awesome landings.
3) Doing overnights in great locations (only a few at the regionals), with great crews can be a good fun. Even crappy locations with good crews are fun.
4) You'll be twice as old as the FA's and a good 15 years older than the captain usually. You can figure out how this affects things but lets say you'll get briefed on the latest pop culture!
5) The initial training at a regional is very intense and I categorize it as one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. However it gets very routine after a while and I'd say in general it is a whole lot easier than being an engineer 9-5.
6) As a pilot you are a commodity. In your technical career you may be used to people coming directly to you to help make large technical decisions. People will respect your opinion and act upon your advice in your technical field. Your skills and abilities can directly affect your pay and position. This never happens as a pilot. You are a bum on a seat, not any more or less capable than the next guy. It is luck if you make it to the majors before the next guy. This for me is the hardest thing about the career change, being out of control of your destiny.
7) The sights you see from the front seat are truely amazing.
8) Getting to the majors is all about PIC time. I went to where I thought I'd get PIC time ASAP. I was wrong and got furloughed. Go to a regional where you could see yourself retiring from. Preferably one that has a secure base close to where you live.
9) You will have the same conversations with different crews each month. You don't build up friendships like you do in an office environment. Your work friends could be scattered all over the country which makes it not so easy to pop out with the guys from work for a Friday beer.
10) You will appreciate your own bed at home.
11) If you are married seeing your wife after a 4 day trip becomes one of the highlights of the week (at least in my case).
12) I think NOW is as good a time as any to get into the industry. The majors are going to hire lots in 2012-2013 when the age 65 rule comes around. That gives you a couple of years to get regional experience and time it to get to the majors. Although going to Vegas and betting all on red could be a safer bet.
13) I don't think pilot wages will be changing much. They better not go down any more and are very unlikely to go up any more.
14) Be prepared for it all not to go to plan. My friends and I when we got hired in 2006/2007 all thought we would be captains by now or at a major. Everyone is still an FO at a regional and could be there for another 2 to 3 years.
15) The airline industry is unlike anything you have ever seen. The seniority system, the unions, the management, the volatility it is all f'd up. You will not understand this statement until you experience it. Even with my wife being a FA for DAZL I didn't undertsand it until I lived it.
16) This is the biggest single piece of advice I can give you. Do not burn bridges at your current career. Keep the contacts and make sure everyone knows that you are able to do some contract work on the road. I don't care what type of contract work it is, just make sure you have something to suppliment your income. I made twice as much contracting for a few hours every couple of months than while I was a year 1 full time regional FO. It gives you something to do on those crappy overnights.
Finally - Go for it. You only live 1 time. Follow your dreams. You'll never get another chance to fly. If it sucks you can always go back to your original career (unlikemost in this industry) and carry on where you left off at 90K. At least you wont regret not trying.
Airfix,
p.s. Who knows, one day we could be one of the first space tourism pilots - you won't ever get that flying a desk!
Funny you should mention that. I'm turning 40 moving from a technical job - aerospace engineering - with pay the same as you to an airline job and my wife is a nurse (also a DAL FA). I went to the regionals 3 years ago and got furloughed a year and a half ago. For that year and a half I went back to my technical job and rebuilt my devastated finances. Here are my thoughts:-
1) Flying a plane beats a contract technical job any day (except for pay at the moment)
2) There is an amazing sense of achievement flying in difficult weather, pulling off great approaches and awesome landings.
3) Doing overnights in great locations (only a few at the regionals), with great crews can be a good fun. Even crappy locations with good crews are fun.
4) You'll be twice as old as the FA's and a good 15 years older than the captain usually. You can figure out how this affects things but lets say you'll get briefed on the latest pop culture!
5) The initial training at a regional is very intense and I categorize it as one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. However it gets very routine after a while and I'd say in general it is a whole lot easier than being an engineer 9-5.
6) As a pilot you are a commodity. In your technical career you may be used to people coming directly to you to help make large technical decisions. People will respect your opinion and act upon your advice in your technical field. Your skills and abilities can directly affect your pay and position. This never happens as a pilot. You are a bum on a seat, not any more or less capable than the next guy. It is luck if you make it to the majors before the next guy. This for me is the hardest thing about the career change, being out of control of your destiny.
7) The sights you see from the front seat are truely amazing.
8) Getting to the majors is all about PIC time. I went to where I thought I'd get PIC time ASAP. I was wrong and got furloughed. Go to a regional where you could see yourself retiring from. Preferably one that has a secure base close to where you live.
9) You will have the same conversations with different crews each month. You don't build up friendships like you do in an office environment. Your work friends could be scattered all over the country which makes it not so easy to pop out with the guys from work for a Friday beer.
10) You will appreciate your own bed at home.
11) If you are married seeing your wife after a 4 day trip becomes one of the highlights of the week (at least in my case).
12) I think NOW is as good a time as any to get into the industry. The majors are going to hire lots in 2012-2013 when the age 65 rule comes around. That gives you a couple of years to get regional experience and time it to get to the majors. Although going to Vegas and betting all on red could be a safer bet.
13) I don't think pilot wages will be changing much. They better not go down any more and are very unlikely to go up any more.
14) Be prepared for it all not to go to plan. My friends and I when we got hired in 2006/2007 all thought we would be captains by now or at a major. Everyone is still an FO at a regional and could be there for another 2 to 3 years.
15) The airline industry is unlike anything you have ever seen. The seniority system, the unions, the management, the volatility it is all f'd up. You will not understand this statement until you experience it. Even with my wife being a FA for DAZL I didn't undertsand it until I lived it.
16) This is the biggest single piece of advice I can give you. Do not burn bridges at your current career. Keep the contacts and make sure everyone knows that you are able to do some contract work on the road. I don't care what type of contract work it is, just make sure you have something to suppliment your income. I made twice as much contracting for a few hours every couple of months than while I was a year 1 full time regional FO. It gives you something to do on those crappy overnights.
Finally - Go for it. You only live 1 time. Follow your dreams. You'll never get another chance to fly. If it sucks you can always go back to your original career (unlikemost in this industry) and carry on where you left off at 90K. At least you wont regret not trying.
Airfix,
p.s. Who knows, one day we could be one of the first space tourism pilots - you won't ever get that flying a desk!
02-07-2011, 08:32 PM
#22
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by Airfix
Panz,
Funny you should mention that. I'm turning 40 moving from a technical job - aerospace engineering - with pay the same as you to an airline job and my wife is a nurse (also a DAL FA). I went to the regionals 3 years ago and got furloughed a year and a half ago. For that year and a half I went back to my technical job and rebuilt my devastated finances. Here are my thoughts:-
1) Flying a plane beats a contract technical job any day (except for pay at the moment)
2) There is an amazing sense of achievement flying in difficult weather, pulling off great approaches and awesome landings.
3) Doing overnights in great locations (only a few at the regionals), with great crews can be a good fun. Even crappy locations with good crews are fun.
4) You'll be twice as old as the FA's and a good 15 years older than the captain usually. You can figure out how this affects things but lets say you'll get briefed on the latest pop culture!
5) The initial training at a regional is very intense and I categorize it as one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. However it gets very routine after a while and I'd say in general it is a whole lot easier than being an engineer 9-5.
6) As a pilot you are a commodity. In your technical career you may be used to people coming directly to you to help make large technical decisions. People will respect your opinion and act upon your advice in your technical field. Your skills and abilities can directly affect your pay and position. This never happens as a pilot. You are a bum on a seat, not any more or less capable than the next guy. It is luck if you make it to the majors before the next guy. This for me is the hardest thing about the career change, being out of control of your destiny.
7) The sights you see from the front seat are truely amazing.
8) Getting to the majors is all about PIC time. I went to where I thought I'd get PIC time ASAP. I was wrong and got furloughed. Go to a regional where you could see yourself retiring from. Preferably one that has a secure base close to where you live.
9) You will have the same conversations with different crews each month. You don't build up friendships like you do in an office environment. Your work friends could be scattered all over the country which makes it not so easy to pop out with the guys from work for a Friday beer.
10) You will appreciate your own bed at home.
11) If you are married seeing your wife after a 4 day trip becomes one of the highlights of the week (at least in my case).
12) I think NOW is as good a time as any to get into the industry. The majors are going to hire lots in 2012-2013 when the age 65 rule comes around. That gives you a couple of years to get regional experience and time it to get to the majors. Although going to Vegas and betting all on red could be a safer bet.
13) I don't think pilot wages will be changing much. They better not go down any more and are very unlikely to go up any more.
14) Be prepared for it all not to go to plan. My friends and I when we got hired in 2006/2007 all thought we would be captains by now or at a major. Everyone is still an FO at a regional and could be there for another 2 to 3 years.
15) The airline industry is unlike anything you have ever seen. The seniority system, the unions, the management, the volatility it is all f'd up. You will not understand this statement until you experience it. Even with my wife being a FA for DAZL I didn't undertsand it until I lived it.
16) This is the biggest single piece of advice I can give you. Do not burn bridges at your current career. Keep the contacts and make sure everyone knows that you are able to do some contract work on the road. I don't care what type of contract work it is, just make sure you have something to suppliment your income. I made twice as much contracting for a few hours every couple of months than while I was a year 1 full time regional FO. It gives you something to do on those crappy overnights.
Finally - Go for it. You only live 1 time. Follow your dreams. You'll never get another chance to fly. If it sucks you can always go back to your original career (unlikemost in this industry) and carry on where you left off at 90K. At least you wont regret not trying.
Airfix,
p.s. Who knows, one day we could be one of the first space tourism pilots - you won't ever get that flying a desk!
Funny you should mention that. I'm turning 40 moving from a technical job - aerospace engineering - with pay the same as you to an airline job and my wife is a nurse (also a DAL FA). I went to the regionals 3 years ago and got furloughed a year and a half ago. For that year and a half I went back to my technical job and rebuilt my devastated finances. Here are my thoughts:-
1) Flying a plane beats a contract technical job any day (except for pay at the moment)
2) There is an amazing sense of achievement flying in difficult weather, pulling off great approaches and awesome landings.
3) Doing overnights in great locations (only a few at the regionals), with great crews can be a good fun. Even crappy locations with good crews are fun.
4) You'll be twice as old as the FA's and a good 15 years older than the captain usually. You can figure out how this affects things but lets say you'll get briefed on the latest pop culture!
5) The initial training at a regional is very intense and I categorize it as one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. However it gets very routine after a while and I'd say in general it is a whole lot easier than being an engineer 9-5.
6) As a pilot you are a commodity. In your technical career you may be used to people coming directly to you to help make large technical decisions. People will respect your opinion and act upon your advice in your technical field. Your skills and abilities can directly affect your pay and position. This never happens as a pilot. You are a bum on a seat, not any more or less capable than the next guy. It is luck if you make it to the majors before the next guy. This for me is the hardest thing about the career change, being out of control of your destiny.
7) The sights you see from the front seat are truely amazing.
8) Getting to the majors is all about PIC time. I went to where I thought I'd get PIC time ASAP. I was wrong and got furloughed. Go to a regional where you could see yourself retiring from. Preferably one that has a secure base close to where you live.
9) You will have the same conversations with different crews each month. You don't build up friendships like you do in an office environment. Your work friends could be scattered all over the country which makes it not so easy to pop out with the guys from work for a Friday beer.
10) You will appreciate your own bed at home.
11) If you are married seeing your wife after a 4 day trip becomes one of the highlights of the week (at least in my case).
12) I think NOW is as good a time as any to get into the industry. The majors are going to hire lots in 2012-2013 when the age 65 rule comes around. That gives you a couple of years to get regional experience and time it to get to the majors. Although going to Vegas and betting all on red could be a safer bet.
13) I don't think pilot wages will be changing much. They better not go down any more and are very unlikely to go up any more.
14) Be prepared for it all not to go to plan. My friends and I when we got hired in 2006/2007 all thought we would be captains by now or at a major. Everyone is still an FO at a regional and could be there for another 2 to 3 years.
15) The airline industry is unlike anything you have ever seen. The seniority system, the unions, the management, the volatility it is all f'd up. You will not understand this statement until you experience it. Even with my wife being a FA for DAZL I didn't undertsand it until I lived it.
16) This is the biggest single piece of advice I can give you. Do not burn bridges at your current career. Keep the contacts and make sure everyone knows that you are able to do some contract work on the road. I don't care what type of contract work it is, just make sure you have something to suppliment your income. I made twice as much contracting for a few hours every couple of months than while I was a year 1 full time regional FO. It gives you something to do on those crappy overnights.
Finally - Go for it. You only live 1 time. Follow your dreams. You'll never get another chance to fly. If it sucks you can always go back to your original career (unlikemost in this industry) and carry on where you left off at 90K. At least you wont regret not trying.
Airfix,
p.s. Who knows, one day we could be one of the first space tourism pilots - you won't ever get that flying a desk!
Airfix... I really appreciate your response. We are similar in so many ways, including the attitude we have concerning our technical field. Your right, I could always do some on the side. Your answers are much more applicable than some of the others here. I will continue my research for a potential change!
02-07-2011, 09:19 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: pilot
Posts: 584
airfix is giving you good advise. If you move into aviation it would be very wise to hang on to your current career to supplement your income. Where you are now financially is a long ways down the road in aviation. I would venture to say that it is almost a guarantee you will have a significant net loss in career earnings. Unless of course you keep working part time as a consultant.
I also would recommend going local for the training and avoid the accelerated programs. For someone that is trying to make a smooth transition and will continue to work part time in their old career field there is very little value in spending the money with a pilot mill school.
Airfix's assertion that the airline industry is essentially on crack is spot on. He broke the code with that observation. Many of the decisions made by management, union leadership and even fellow pilots will make you scratch your head in disbelief. The industry does not work on any type of sound business model or ethical standard for the most part. It is just full of people that have convinced themselves otherwise.
Good luck
I also would recommend going local for the training and avoid the accelerated programs. For someone that is trying to make a smooth transition and will continue to work part time in their old career field there is very little value in spending the money with a pilot mill school.
Airfix's assertion that the airline industry is essentially on crack is spot on. He broke the code with that observation. Many of the decisions made by management, union leadership and even fellow pilots will make you scratch your head in disbelief. The industry does not work on any type of sound business model or ethical standard for the most part. It is just full of people that have convinced themselves otherwise.
Good luck
Last edited by rdneckpilot; 02-07-2011 at 09:25 PM. Reason: added to post
02-07-2011, 09:43 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: ERJ CA
Posts: 1,082
Originally Posted by panzer948
However, I am not looking to aviation for the money, really just a decent salary like I already have so that I can enjoy a similar standard of living. I currently make around $90K. If I eventually made more than that in aviation than that is great. But I also know for some time I will make a lot less than that. I think the deciding factor (again due to my age) is how long will I make substantially less than 90K after I completed a fast track through aviation school.
02-08-2011, 10:15 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 229
Panzer,
Glad to help. It is a big decision that I continue to wrestle with and have made for a second time. I'm going back after my furlough to a different regional and start training at the end of this month I was lucky because with my wife being an FA she already understands the industry and was quite supportive (god knows why).
There is no way that financially making the career change will make sense. I built an excel spreadsheet using the hourly rate numbers shown on this website for the regional and major airlines I see myself at.
I ran one set of numbers at the minimum gurantee of hours per month and another set of numbers using 80 hours per month. I also ran best case scenarios and worst case scenarios. The best case was 4 years as a regional FO then moving to a major and 12 years as an FO at the major followed by a captain position. The worst case was 8 years as a regional FO then the rest of my career as a regional captain. I compared both of these to my potential earnings as an engineer. It was not too pretty.
Comparing the best case scenario I would have future career earnings of about 2.8 million as an airline pilot compared to 2.4 million as an engineer. I'd have to work until I was 65 and I would not be ahead in the career earnings until I was 62 years old. Then if you think about the fact that money earned in your younger years is more valuable than money earned in your later years due to compounding interest there is no good argument to change career except an emotional one.
My analysis doesn't include items such as loss of medical or earnings from contract engineering work but it gave me some ball park numbers to think about while making the decision.
Good luck with your decision and let me know if you have any specific questions I'll try to answer them as best I can.
Airfix
Glad to help. It is a big decision that I continue to wrestle with and have made for a second time. I'm going back after my furlough to a different regional and start training at the end of this month I was lucky because with my wife being an FA she already understands the industry and was quite supportive (god knows why).
There is no way that financially making the career change will make sense. I built an excel spreadsheet using the hourly rate numbers shown on this website for the regional and major airlines I see myself at.
I ran one set of numbers at the minimum gurantee of hours per month and another set of numbers using 80 hours per month. I also ran best case scenarios and worst case scenarios. The best case was 4 years as a regional FO then moving to a major and 12 years as an FO at the major followed by a captain position. The worst case was 8 years as a regional FO then the rest of my career as a regional captain. I compared both of these to my potential earnings as an engineer. It was not too pretty.
Comparing the best case scenario I would have future career earnings of about 2.8 million as an airline pilot compared to 2.4 million as an engineer. I'd have to work until I was 65 and I would not be ahead in the career earnings until I was 62 years old. Then if you think about the fact that money earned in your younger years is more valuable than money earned in your later years due to compounding interest there is no good argument to change career except an emotional one.
My analysis doesn't include items such as loss of medical or earnings from contract engineering work but it gave me some ball park numbers to think about while making the decision.
Good luck with your decision and let me know if you have any specific questions I'll try to answer them as best I can.
Airfix
02-08-2011, 10:52 AM
#26
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Nice contribution Airfix. We have a similar backgrounds in AE and I face many of the same decisions you deal with. I like how realistic you are about your decisions also. It also says something that you are still flying despite all this. In the last 5 years I have seen engineers bounce in and out of the airlines wondering what they had in mind, and others droning away at desks like slaves in a twilight zone.
02-08-2011, 11:09 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 229
Cub,
The decision for me is quite complex as I'm sure it is for everyone. I think if I was in a company that respected their engineers, didn't work them to the bone, committed to realistic schedules and provided career growth I might not be at the airlines. This is the main reason I am going back.
Working 60 hour weeks including weekends gets old after a while and there are no other aerospace engineering companies close to where I am. I like where I live but I cannot see myself spending another 20+ years at this desk with this company so I needed an out. I'm also at the top of my pay grade with only the only place to grow would be management but I like the engineering too much to be a manager.
The other key part of my decision is that I am about 80% confident I'll still be able to contract engineer at my old company while flying without having to deal with the day to day management debacle. That will keep my engineering head sharp and some pennies in the pocket.
If I don't go back to flying now then I close the door for ever on that big shiny jet I've always wanted to fly, but the engineering door will always be open for me.
Lunch over - back to the drawing board!
The decision for me is quite complex as I'm sure it is for everyone. I think if I was in a company that respected their engineers, didn't work them to the bone, committed to realistic schedules and provided career growth I might not be at the airlines. This is the main reason I am going back.
Working 60 hour weeks including weekends gets old after a while and there are no other aerospace engineering companies close to where I am. I like where I live but I cannot see myself spending another 20+ years at this desk with this company so I needed an out. I'm also at the top of my pay grade with only the only place to grow would be management but I like the engineering too much to be a manager.
The other key part of my decision is that I am about 80% confident I'll still be able to contract engineer at my old company while flying without having to deal with the day to day management debacle. That will keep my engineering head sharp and some pennies in the pocket.
If I don't go back to flying now then I close the door for ever on that big shiny jet I've always wanted to fly, but the engineering door will always be open for me.
Lunch over - back to the drawing board!
02-08-2011, 02:15 PM
#28
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,286
Originally Posted by Airfix
There is no way that financially making the career change will make sense. I built an excel spreadsheet using the hourly rate numbers shown on this website for the regional and major airlines I see myself at.
The best we can hope for now is that aviation will provide a reasonable slightly-upper-middle-class income, good quality of life, and the opportunity to do something that most people don't get to. The latter is by no means worth sacrificing the first two.
Yes, keep one foot in your current career. I have several things going, and that has saved my financial future from the airline industry. I work my butt off outside of aviation, and will continue to do so until I am satisfied that I have enough assets for contingencies (furlough, medical, etc) and to fund retirement. I hope to kick back, relax, and just enjoy being a pilot someday...hopefully before age 60
02-08-2011, 06:34 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Math Teacher
Posts: 2,274
Originally Posted by Airfix
Panz,
Funny you should mention that. I'm turning 40.
Finally - Go for it. You only live 1 time. Follow your dreams. You'll never get another chance to fly. If it sucks you can always go back to your original career (unlikemost in this industry) and carry on where you left off at 90K. At least you wont regret not trying.
Airfix,
p.s. Who knows, one day we could be one of the first space tourism pilots - you won't ever get that flying a desk!
Funny you should mention that. I'm turning 40.
Finally - Go for it. You only live 1 time. Follow your dreams. You'll never get another chance to fly. If it sucks you can always go back to your original career (unlikemost in this industry) and carry on where you left off at 90K. At least you wont regret not trying.
Airfix,
p.s. Who knows, one day we could be one of the first space tourism pilots - you won't ever get that flying a desk!
Panzer948:
You're 39, Airfix is 40, and I'm 49. Like he said.....go for it! We'll never get another chance at this.
atp
02-08-2011, 10:28 PM
#30
New Hire
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 5
I'm 55 and after a 21 year career with Verizon was retired out the door. Two weeks later in December of 2009 I started ab initio at a flight school in Southern California, got my Private in February, my Instrument in May, my Commercial in July and my CFI/CFII in November. I'm now working full time as an instructor at about a third of what I was making at Verizon but I'm flying a plane and not a desk. Good luck, everything I hear about the next ten years is positive in terms of pilot and instructor demand.
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