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Old 07-14-2012, 04:45 PM   #1  
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Default "Holding Out" Quiz

I'm going to be taking my ASEL CPL ride this coming week. The "holding out" grey areas are a little confusing so I was going to throw out a couple scenarios to discuss. It would be nice to have a firm understanding for the oral, as I know it's going to be an important area.

It's been a long work week and I've had the itch to fly. I'm thinking this weekend I'll make a little XC jog down to one of my favorite restaurants. I'm planning a Saturday morning flight, and discuss the trip with a friend. "That sounds fun..." We split the rental fee and pay our own bills for the food. Nothing different than when I was a new Private Pilot.

The following day a different friend hears of our trip and would like to do the same "sometime" with his wife. "We have no problem paying our share of the rental..." I make plans to do the flight the next weekend, but wouldn't have made the trip otherwise.

A friend who owns a C-172 has a business meeting 200 miles away and would like to use his plane. He has paperwork to get done before the meeting and therefore asks me to fly him there for a fee. We go, I smile and take the cash. This scenario, however, would be illegal if he paid for a rental plane and I flew him on the same trip?

The previous scenario, except now I'm flying boxes for his business. He does not come along on the trip. Still his plane.

Same scenario, but I'm flying two of his colleagues to the meeting. Still his plane. Sounds like a corporate pilot?

I see nothing like this in FAR 119.1 (CFI, banner tow, pipeline, etc)

Where does the Commercial Operator come into play? Throw in a few more tricky scenarios if you would like, I want to "wow" my D.E.
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:50 PM   #2  
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AC-120-12A helps define private vs common carriage further.

Your examples.

1. With your friend - no problem
2. Different friend- Depends on how much they pay. There might be some issues if you made repeat trips, because the "original" friend could be considered an agent for your operation.
3. Business man- still legal as long as you know him personally and with having him rent a plane doesn't matter because he is furnishing it.
4. Boxes- Depends. Because if the boxes are from the general public, then he is acting as the avertising agent. Otherwise, if it is just to ship parts to supply his business; no problem.
5. Two friends- yep it's basically corporate.

Think of common carriage as are you holding out to the general public. Flights with friends as a common connection is fine.

The best catch all answer to give your answer to the DPE is "if I have questionable scenarios, I will contact the Regional counsel of the FAA before engaging in the activities."

However, you should be able to answer some basic examples.
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Old 07-14-2012, 06:08 PM   #3  
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Originally Posted by yimke View Post
AC-120-12A helps define private vs common carriage further.

Your examples.

1. With your friend - no problem
2. Different friend- Depends on how much they pay. There might be some issues if you made repeat trips, because the "original" friend could be considered an agent for your operation.
3. Business man- still legal as long as you know him personally and with having him rent a plane doesn't matter because he is furnishing it.
4. Boxes- Depends. Because if the boxes are from the general public, then he is acting as the avertising agent. Otherwise, if it is just to ship parts to supply his business; no problem.
5. Two friends- yep it's basically corporate.

Think of common carriage as are you holding out to the general public. Flights with friends as a common connection is fine.

The best catch all answer to give your answer to the DPE is "if I have questionable scenarios, I will contact the Regional counsel of the FAA before engaging in the activities."

However, you should be able to answer some basic examples.
I agree with this for the most part, the AC states that there is a "long term basis" and that usually means a long term relationship of some kind, business, etc. I wouldn't say it to the DPE quite like above though, because it shows lack of understanding, I'd include how it can be construed as common carriage if that is the situation, and then say that I'd ask the FSDO to be sure, whilst not agreeing outright to do anything that could again be construed as common carriage.

If you want to get real technical, AC 120-12a is NOT listed in the PTS references for the task and should therefore be "off limits" as far as checkrides go...
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:02 PM   #4  
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I agree with this for the most part, the AC states that there is a "long term basis" and that usually means a long term relationship of some kind, business, etc. I wouldn't say it to the DPE quite like above though, because it shows lack of understanding, I'd include how it can be construed as common carriage if that is the situation, and then say that I'd ask the FSDO to be sure, whilst not agreeing outright to do anything that could again be construed as common carriage.

If you want to get real technical, AC 120-12a is NOT listed in the PTS references for the task and should therefore be "off limits" as far as checkrides go...
Touche' it is not a reference listed in the PTS, but examiners will ask what common carriage is. What is private carriage? What is holding out? The only references the FAA lists are FAR 61, 43, 91, PHAK and AFH. So with the limited references the PTS gives you; it makes it a little difficult to explain without tapping into FAR part 1 , 119, 121, and 135. Also the AC helps explain some of those terms as examples.
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Old 07-15-2012, 05:58 AM   #5  
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Touche' it is not a reference listed in the PTS, but examiners will ask what common carriage is. What is private carriage? What is holding out? The only references the FAA lists are FAR 61, 43, 91, PHAK and AFH. So with the limited references the PTS gives you; it makes it a little difficult to explain without tapping into FAR part 1 , 119, 121, and 135. Also the AC helps explain some of those terms as examples.
absolutely
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:52 PM   #6  
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I just took my commercial check ride today. One of our CP's explained holding out as bluntly as it gets. Anytime you are approached as a commercial pilot there's several questions you need to ask yourself first.

1.) Did I hold out? Just remember that you don't have to advertise or have an agent who advertises to be considered holding out. It also means you are known for having a willingness to accept contracts from anybody (i.e. I know a friend of a friend of a friend who flies to the Bahama's).

2.) Most important question IS THERE A SEAT FOR SALE on the airplane? If there is guess what your next question should be? Do you have an operating certificate.

3. And lastly who is furnishing the airplane? Just because your a commercial pilot doesn't mean you can't exercise private pilot privileges. If you friend Bob owns his own airplane he can pay you to fly him. As far as boxes go if you are receiving compensation to move boxes that could be considered an operation. Again if you have any scenario that sounds too good to be true contact the FSDO to make sure you are legal. It's most likely the PIC who will get sued and fined not the person who requested your services. AC 120-12A is a good reference although it is outdated.
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:56 PM   #7  
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I just took my commercial check ride today. One of our CP's explained holding out as bluntly as it gets. Anytime you are approached as a commercial pilot there's several questions you need to ask yourself first.

1.) Did I hold out? Just remember that you don't have to advertise or have an agent who advertises to be considered holding out. It also means you are known for having a willingness to accept contracts from anybody (i.e. I know a friend of a friend of a friend who flies to the Bahama's).

2.) Most important question IS THERE A SEAT FOR SALE on the airplane? If there is guess what your next question should be? Do you have an operating certificate.

3. And lastly who is furnishing the airplane? Just because your a commercial pilot doesn't mean you can't exercise private pilot privileges. If you friend Bob owns his own airplane he can pay you to fly him. As far as boxes go if you are receiving compensation to move boxes that could be considered an operation. Again if you have any scenario that sounds too good to be true contact the FSDO to make sure you are legal. It's most likely the PIC who will get sued and fined not the person who requested your services. AC 120-12A is a good reference although it is outdated.
I assume you passed?
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:10 PM   #8  
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As my DPE said, "there are no Grey areas when it comes to holding out".
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Old 07-25-2012, 02:45 PM   #9  
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I did pass
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Old 07-25-2012, 04:41 PM   #10  
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I did pass
congrats! did you go with Ernie?
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