Solo in 25 hours. Ouch!
01-19-2007, 08:51 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 574
hey toeman what do you consider a sh@# flight instructor??? i know some shi@# flight instructors but i also know sh@#$ students also. When i was instucting if a student want to get all of his ratings we would do the first portion of his private up untill the solo then go on to the instrument when most of the instrument was finished they would solo by that time the solo was a non-event three supervised solo's in the mourning 2 local solo's in the afternoon. 2 x-c's the next day, another 2 the following day untill all the solo's were done review the slow flight steep turns stalls checkride (non-event) two weeks later instrument checkride commercial complete in a couple weeks later, very productive program. i soloed at a different school than i instructed at so i scared myself aroud the pattern in about 10-12 hours I did not kill myself but i did not enjoy it untill i was back on the ground.
01-19-2007, 09:31 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
Originally Posted by LAfrequentflyer
I've made my decision to not fly in the DC area. I'm not going to rationalize it for you. You made yours - I'm glad it worked out for you.
-LAFF
-LAFF
01-19-2007, 09:39 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Originally Posted by Slice
Are you worried I may have to intercept you? I'll be gentle, I promise. Even if you still do want to attend ATP.
Yeap...You'll know its me...I put a big ATP meatball on the side / top / bottom of my C172.
-LAFF
01-19-2007, 11:03 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"I've never said ATP has no bad CFIs. I don't drink their kool-aid. I've never set foot in an ATP location"
LAFF, you come across at this site as though you're a spokesperson/marketing rep for ATP. Quite the cheerleader. Yet you've never set foot in an ATP location nor done any training there?
I trained at a little flight school and ended up at UPS. Little FBO's aren't all bad. Your self admitted bitterness towards them is fine but you run around this site telling every newb that ATP is the only way. What's sad is a few are gonna listen to you like you have some experience with it outside the internet, which you don't.
ATP is a great place to train for those who want to go that route. The smaller flight school is a great place to train for others. There are advantages to the little schools that don't include getting on at a regional in min time but that will make a better pilot out of you. To me, that's important.
My biggest beefs with ATP are the low CFI pay, the lack of a chance to experience the world outside of the ATP system, and the reliance on inexperienced CFI's who were PPL's 90 days ago. You could do better at an FBO, in some cases. In some cases, maybe not, but to discount all FBO's blindly in favor of ATP does a disservice to the newbs who read this site.
LAFF, you come across at this site as though you're a spokesperson/marketing rep for ATP. Quite the cheerleader. Yet you've never set foot in an ATP location nor done any training there?
I trained at a little flight school and ended up at UPS. Little FBO's aren't all bad. Your self admitted bitterness towards them is fine but you run around this site telling every newb that ATP is the only way. What's sad is a few are gonna listen to you like you have some experience with it outside the internet, which you don't.
ATP is a great place to train for those who want to go that route. The smaller flight school is a great place to train for others. There are advantages to the little schools that don't include getting on at a regional in min time but that will make a better pilot out of you. To me, that's important.
My biggest beefs with ATP are the low CFI pay, the lack of a chance to experience the world outside of the ATP system, and the reliance on inexperienced CFI's who were PPL's 90 days ago. You could do better at an FBO, in some cases. In some cases, maybe not, but to discount all FBO's blindly in favor of ATP does a disservice to the newbs who read this site.
01-19-2007, 11:07 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Alright here it comes:
How does a bad/poor student attitude affect YOUR training?? I have never had a poor attituded student affect my training, and I don't see how they would affect your training.
Your right, every student takes the EXACT same amount of time. There are no learning curves, everyone gets everything the first time around, perfectly. If this is what you truly believe, then I feel sorry for your furture students when you sign them off based solely on the amount of Dual they have received and not on their capabilities.
There are also a few ALL ATP Guys who sound just like some of these ERAU grads. If you just replaced ALL ATPS with ERAU, I think it would be a perfect match.
I guess one bad FBO means all FBOs are bad. Its a shame because you can find instructors with much more real-world expeirence at FBOs, not so much at ATP. One of my instructors retired from a career of flying and teaches because he loves to. I think I learned more from him than I would from a 190 hour, brand new, ATP Grad, teaching me.
The problem with half of your X-C time being Safety Pilot time, is that you do not have the expeirence that goes along with the time. You have half the expeirence. You lose out on alot when you simply sit right seat and look out the window for other aircraft.
Originally Posted by LAfrequentflyer
Another reason to avoid FBOs - the bad / poor attitude student
BS...Students don't need more time...FBO / CFIs milk their students as much as they can - its how they make their coin. The longer the student stays the more you and the FBO make...
Of course, there are a few ERAU grads that have 'no regrets...'
Your in business because of the ignorant masses that don't know about the product ATP sells. I was one of those ignorant fools. I've since learned an very valuable lesson...
I'm very bitter about my FBO experiences...
I'm very bitter about my FBO experiences...
Its legal under the FARs. I see no problem if thats what they do. I have to be honest - I didn't know thats what they did when two student pilots went x-c at ATP. It makes sense.
01-19-2007, 11:31 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Originally Posted by de727ups
"I've never said ATP has no bad CFIs. I don't drink their kool-aid. I've never set foot in an ATP location"
LAFF, you come across at this site as though you're a spokesperson/marketing rep for ATP. Quite the cheerleader. Yet you've never set foot in an ATP location nor done any training there?
I trained at a little flight school and ended up at UPS. Little FBO's aren't all bad. Your self admitted bitterness towards them is fine but you run around this site telling every newb that ATP is the only way. What's sad is a few are gonna listen to you like you have some experience with it outside the internet, which you don't.
ATP is a great place to train for those who want to go that route. The smaller flight school is a great place to train for others. There are advantages to the little schools that don't include getting on at a regional in min time but that will make a better pilot out of you. To me, that's important.
My biggest beefs with ATP are the low CFI pay, the lack of a chance to experience the world outside of the ATP system, and the reliance on inexperienced CFI's who were PPL's 90 days ago. You could do better at an FBO, in some cases. In some cases, maybe not, but to discount all FBO's blindly in favor of ATP does a disservice to the newbs who read this site.
LAFF, you come across at this site as though you're a spokesperson/marketing rep for ATP. Quite the cheerleader. Yet you've never set foot in an ATP location nor done any training there?
I trained at a little flight school and ended up at UPS. Little FBO's aren't all bad. Your self admitted bitterness towards them is fine but you run around this site telling every newb that ATP is the only way. What's sad is a few are gonna listen to you like you have some experience with it outside the internet, which you don't.
ATP is a great place to train for those who want to go that route. The smaller flight school is a great place to train for others. There are advantages to the little schools that don't include getting on at a regional in min time but that will make a better pilot out of you. To me, that's important.
My biggest beefs with ATP are the low CFI pay, the lack of a chance to experience the world outside of the ATP system, and the reliance on inexperienced CFI's who were PPL's 90 days ago. You could do better at an FBO, in some cases. In some cases, maybe not, but to discount all FBO's blindly in favor of ATP does a disservice to the newbs who read this site.
I hope they do more than listen to me. I hope they do their own research. If they do - they'll realize that ATP offers the best $$$ deal for the hours / type of hours / time from start to finish of any 141 flight academy out there. If you are serious about getting into aviation as a career changer then pay up and get your ratings at ATP. Then CFI...Then apply for 135 jobs...Then head to a regional after you get some 135 single pilot IFR type flying in your logbook.
I'm not responsible for people taking my word and not doing their own research....
-LAFF
01-19-2007, 11:37 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Originally Posted by NE_Pilot
Alright here it comes:
How does a bad/poor student attitude affect YOUR training?? I have never had a poor attituded student affect my training, and I don't see how they would affect your training.
Your right, every student takes the EXACT same amount of time. There are no learning curves, everyone gets everything the first time around, perfectly. If this is what you truly believe, then I feel sorry for your furture students when you sign them off based solely on the amount of Dual they have received and not on their capabilities.
There are also a few ALL ATP Guys who sound just like some of these ERAU grads. If you just replaced ALL ATPS with ERAU, I think it would be a perfect match.
I guess one bad FBO means all FBOs are bad. Its a shame because you can find instructors with much more real-world expeirence at FBOs, not so much at ATP. One of my instructors retired from a career of flying and teaches because he loves to. I think I learned more from him than I would from a 190 hour, brand new, ATP Grad, teaching me.
The problem with half of your X-C time being Safety Pilot time, is that you do not have the expeirence that goes along with the time. You have half the expeirence. You lose out on alot when you simply sit right seat and look out the window for other aircraft.
How does a bad/poor student attitude affect YOUR training?? I have never had a poor attituded student affect my training, and I don't see how they would affect your training.
Your right, every student takes the EXACT same amount of time. There are no learning curves, everyone gets everything the first time around, perfectly. If this is what you truly believe, then I feel sorry for your furture students when you sign them off based solely on the amount of Dual they have received and not on their capabilities.
There are also a few ALL ATP Guys who sound just like some of these ERAU grads. If you just replaced ALL ATPS with ERAU, I think it would be a perfect match.
I guess one bad FBO means all FBOs are bad. Its a shame because you can find instructors with much more real-world expeirence at FBOs, not so much at ATP. One of my instructors retired from a career of flying and teaches because he loves to. I think I learned more from him than I would from a 190 hour, brand new, ATP Grad, teaching me.
The problem with half of your X-C time being Safety Pilot time, is that you do not have the expeirence that goes along with the time. You have half the expeirence. You lose out on alot when you simply sit right seat and look out the window for other aircraft.
Real world experience at milking their students out of their money. I do agree not all FBO CFIs lack real world experience.
There is a considerable difference between the Harvard of the Skies and ATP. You're not saying ATP is the same as Harvard of the Skies are you? ATP is for flight training. Harvard of the Skies is for...Debt?
Don't be dramatic and pretend to care about my future students. Its not your place or responsibility unless I work for you. In that case, your expectations will be given thier due from me the loyal / hard-working employee. However, the final say on if they are ready or is mine. I'm not flexible on that responsibility. You can hire someone else if you disagree. There are plenty of CFI jobs out there.
-LAFF
01-19-2007, 01:54 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
Originally Posted by LAfrequentflyer
Real world experience at milking their students out of their money. I do agree not all FBO CFIs lack real world experience.
There is a considerable difference between the Harvard of the Skies and ATP. You're not saying ATP is the same as Harvard of the Skies are you? ATP is for flight training. Harvard of the Skies is for...Debt?
Don't be dramatic and pretend to care about my future students. Its not your place or responsibility unless I work for you. In that case, your expectations will be given thier due from me the loyal / hard-working employee. However, the final say on if they are ready or is mine. I'm not flexible on that responsibility. You can hire someone else if you disagree. There are plenty of CFI jobs out there.
-LAFF
There is a considerable difference between the Harvard of the Skies and ATP. You're not saying ATP is the same as Harvard of the Skies are you? ATP is for flight training. Harvard of the Skies is for...Debt?
Don't be dramatic and pretend to care about my future students. Its not your place or responsibility unless I work for you. In that case, your expectations will be given thier due from me the loyal / hard-working employee. However, the final say on if they are ready or is mine. I'm not flexible on that responsibility. You can hire someone else if you disagree. There are plenty of CFI jobs out there.
-LAFF
So in this case ATP is for DEBT?
http://www.prairieairservice.com/com..._ab_initio.htm
Single and Multi Engine Instrument and Commercial Pilot Course #3: $21,900.00
This is our "deluxe" package which includes 150 hours multi-engine flight time and a total of 161 hours of retractable gear experience. It includes 78 hours Cessna 150, 11 hours Piper Arrow, 150 hours Piper Apache and 16 hours ATC 610 procedures trainer. This package also includes 132 hours of instructor time (approximately 86 hours flight, 16 hours flight training device and 30 hours ground instruction). 110 hours of multi engine flight time will be enhanced instrument training and shared flight time: You will fly with another pilot, and one of you will wear a hood and practice instrument procedures, while the other pilot acts as safety pilot. Under this arrangement the FAA allows both pilots to log the flight time. Due to insurance requirements an instructor will be on board on these flights. He will ride in the back seat and act as coach. You will receive enhanced instrument instruction above and beyond the requirements for the instrument rating. A multi-engine mountain flying checkout to Colorado or New Mexico is included. We can also fly a long multi-engine cross country trip lasting several days to a tourist attraction such as the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone or Niagara Falls. There will be a fuel surcharge of about $20.00 per hour (shared by both pilots) on long cross country trips in the Apache, since fuel prices away from our home base are considerably higher than our bulk fuel costs at home. Any hotel, restaurant and rental car costs will be additional.
http://www.prairieairservice.com/fli...r_training.htm
Initial Flight Instructor Certificate, Airplane Single Engine $ 3400.00
3 to 5 weeks: 15 hours Piper Arrow dual, 40 hours ground school and briefings
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot airplane single engine land with instrument rating, completion of (2) knowledge exams.
Note: Students with rusty commercial pilot maneuvers skills will require
additional flight time. Students with weak background knowledge and/or poor communications skills will require considerably more ground school before being able to present the required subject areas at the instructional level. Requires a large amount of self study and homework.
MORE INFORMATION | BACK TO TOP
Flight Instructor Instrument Rating $ 1250.00
3 days: 8 hours Piper Arrow dual, 6 hours ground school and briefings.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single (or multi) engine, completion of knowledge exam. Instrument currency and competency.
Note: Students who are rusty on instrument procedures will require additional training. Prior instructing experience is helpful.
Multi Engine Instructor Rating $ 1235.00
3 days: 6 hrs. dual, airplane for flight test 5 hrs. ground school & briefings, examiner’s fee additional.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single and multi engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single engine, 10 hours multi engine pilot in command.
Note: 200 hours of instructing experience is helpful. Students without much instructing experience will require additional ground and flight training.
01-19-2007, 02:51 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Originally Posted by Slice
LAFF, Below is a sample of the Prairie Air Service Ab-Initio program for approx. $34,085 you get 317 hours of total time, 156 hours of multi, ratings PPL thru MEI, includes 6 months of housing with food(worst case- can be done in 4-5 realistically saving $600/mo), includes examiner fees, written fees, etc. Out the door for $34K. The same program without food at ATP...$47,395. You can add the additional 34 hours to get to 190 multi at PAS for $5270 w/ instructor only or 50% as safety pilot for $2635 which brings your PAS total to $39,425 / $36,790 PAS savings $7970 - $10605 with CFI's that have been flying more than 90 days.
So in this case ATP is for DEBT?
http://www.prairieairservice.com/com..._ab_initio.htm
Single and Multi Engine Instrument and Commercial Pilot Course #3: $21,900.00
This is our "deluxe" package which includes 150 hours multi-engine flight time and a total of 161 hours of retractable gear experience. It includes 78 hours Cessna 150, 11 hours Piper Arrow, 150 hours Piper Apache and 16 hours ATC 610 procedures trainer. This package also includes 132 hours of instructor time (approximately 86 hours flight, 16 hours flight training device and 30 hours ground instruction). 110 hours of multi engine flight time will be enhanced instrument training and shared flight time: You will fly with another pilot, and one of you will wear a hood and practice instrument procedures, while the other pilot acts as safety pilot. Under this arrangement the FAA allows both pilots to log the flight time. Due to insurance requirements an instructor will be on board on these flights. He will ride in the back seat and act as coach. You will receive enhanced instrument instruction above and beyond the requirements for the instrument rating. A multi-engine mountain flying checkout to Colorado or New Mexico is included. We can also fly a long multi-engine cross country trip lasting several days to a tourist attraction such as the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone or Niagara Falls. There will be a fuel surcharge of about $20.00 per hour (shared by both pilots) on long cross country trips in the Apache, since fuel prices away from our home base are considerably higher than our bulk fuel costs at home. Any hotel, restaurant and rental car costs will be additional.
http://www.prairieairservice.com/fli...r_training.htm
Initial Flight Instructor Certificate, Airplane Single Engine $ 3400.00
3 to 5 weeks: 15 hours Piper Arrow dual, 40 hours ground school and briefings
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot airplane single engine land with instrument rating, completion of (2) knowledge exams.
Note: Students with rusty commercial pilot maneuvers skills will require
additional flight time. Students with weak background knowledge and/or poor communications skills will require considerably more ground school before being able to present the required subject areas at the instructional level. Requires a large amount of self study and homework.
MORE INFORMATION | BACK TO TOP
Flight Instructor Instrument Rating $ 1250.00
3 days: 8 hours Piper Arrow dual, 6 hours ground school and briefings.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single (or multi) engine, completion of knowledge exam. Instrument currency and competency.
Note: Students who are rusty on instrument procedures will require additional training. Prior instructing experience is helpful.
Multi Engine Instructor Rating $ 1235.00
3 days: 6 hrs. dual, airplane for flight test 5 hrs. ground school & briefings, examiner’s fee additional.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single and multi engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single engine, 10 hours multi engine pilot in command.
Note: 200 hours of instructing experience is helpful. Students without much instructing experience will require additional ground and flight training.
So in this case ATP is for DEBT?
http://www.prairieairservice.com/com..._ab_initio.htm
Single and Multi Engine Instrument and Commercial Pilot Course #3: $21,900.00
This is our "deluxe" package which includes 150 hours multi-engine flight time and a total of 161 hours of retractable gear experience. It includes 78 hours Cessna 150, 11 hours Piper Arrow, 150 hours Piper Apache and 16 hours ATC 610 procedures trainer. This package also includes 132 hours of instructor time (approximately 86 hours flight, 16 hours flight training device and 30 hours ground instruction). 110 hours of multi engine flight time will be enhanced instrument training and shared flight time: You will fly with another pilot, and one of you will wear a hood and practice instrument procedures, while the other pilot acts as safety pilot. Under this arrangement the FAA allows both pilots to log the flight time. Due to insurance requirements an instructor will be on board on these flights. He will ride in the back seat and act as coach. You will receive enhanced instrument instruction above and beyond the requirements for the instrument rating. A multi-engine mountain flying checkout to Colorado or New Mexico is included. We can also fly a long multi-engine cross country trip lasting several days to a tourist attraction such as the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone or Niagara Falls. There will be a fuel surcharge of about $20.00 per hour (shared by both pilots) on long cross country trips in the Apache, since fuel prices away from our home base are considerably higher than our bulk fuel costs at home. Any hotel, restaurant and rental car costs will be additional.
http://www.prairieairservice.com/fli...r_training.htm
Initial Flight Instructor Certificate, Airplane Single Engine $ 3400.00
3 to 5 weeks: 15 hours Piper Arrow dual, 40 hours ground school and briefings
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot airplane single engine land with instrument rating, completion of (2) knowledge exams.
Note: Students with rusty commercial pilot maneuvers skills will require
additional flight time. Students with weak background knowledge and/or poor communications skills will require considerably more ground school before being able to present the required subject areas at the instructional level. Requires a large amount of self study and homework.
MORE INFORMATION | BACK TO TOP
Flight Instructor Instrument Rating $ 1250.00
3 days: 8 hours Piper Arrow dual, 6 hours ground school and briefings.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single (or multi) engine, completion of knowledge exam. Instrument currency and competency.
Note: Students who are rusty on instrument procedures will require additional training. Prior instructing experience is helpful.
Multi Engine Instructor Rating $ 1235.00
3 days: 6 hrs. dual, airplane for flight test 5 hrs. ground school & briefings, examiner’s fee additional.
Pre-requisites: Commercial pilot, airplane single and multi engine land with instrument rating, flight instructor airplane single engine, 10 hours multi engine pilot in command.
Note: 200 hours of instructing experience is helpful. Students without much instructing experience will require additional ground and flight training.
I still...Well, you know the rest.
-LAFF
01-21-2007, 12:26 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 614
Originally Posted by toeman9
So I soloed after 25 hours. Bummer. I did a 141 course that followed the Jeppesen syllabus.
As some of you may know, I had that pain in the a$$ flight instructor who loved to talk about blabid,y blah, blah. My CFI told me not to worry about how long it took me to solo and not to compare with others, because I would just “set myself up for failure”. I got booked hours, and I got chumped.
I compare my experience to that of Rosemary in “Rosemary’s Baby”, when Dr. Saprestien (the OB) convinces Rosemary (who is impregnated with Satan’s child) to not read pregnancy books, nor compare her pregnancy with that of her friends or family since every pregnancy is unique. This practice, of course, promoted isolationism and didn’t allow Rosemary to see how she was progressing next to her peers. Thus Satan’s seed was undisturbed and born unto the earth.
At the FBO I’m at, other CFIs have shown sympathy towards me and have rolled their eyes at my CFI and his wasteful ways. The redeeming quality about the FBO I’m at is that the owner and chief have really shown me how to be a good pilot and not just pass the check ride. Unfortunately, the owner/chief is only available during Stage Checks.
70 hours later I’m approaching my FAA Practical Exam. I flew 3 – 4 times per week with my really lame CFI, who, I know, I should have switched after the third flight. I’ve been with one other FBO (had a drunkard CFI) and I’ve been by ATP (totally disappointing) and really like the FBO I’m at, with the exception of my dumb a$$ instructor.
I guess I’m not here to seek advice, because I already know what to do, but I just want to let you newbies out there hear my story so that you know when to say “STOP. YOU ARE FIRED” or figure out what is important to you. I couldn’t bring myself to uproot and stop my training to find the perfect CFI. So instead I sucked it up and rode it out.
We’ll see how the outcome goes in regards to my End of Course. Perhaps I may even get to fill out an evaluation on my CFI.
As some of you may know, I had that pain in the a$$ flight instructor who loved to talk about blabid,y blah, blah. My CFI told me not to worry about how long it took me to solo and not to compare with others, because I would just “set myself up for failure”. I got booked hours, and I got chumped.
I compare my experience to that of Rosemary in “Rosemary’s Baby”, when Dr. Saprestien (the OB) convinces Rosemary (who is impregnated with Satan’s child) to not read pregnancy books, nor compare her pregnancy with that of her friends or family since every pregnancy is unique. This practice, of course, promoted isolationism and didn’t allow Rosemary to see how she was progressing next to her peers. Thus Satan’s seed was undisturbed and born unto the earth.
At the FBO I’m at, other CFIs have shown sympathy towards me and have rolled their eyes at my CFI and his wasteful ways. The redeeming quality about the FBO I’m at is that the owner and chief have really shown me how to be a good pilot and not just pass the check ride. Unfortunately, the owner/chief is only available during Stage Checks.
70 hours later I’m approaching my FAA Practical Exam. I flew 3 – 4 times per week with my really lame CFI, who, I know, I should have switched after the third flight. I’ve been with one other FBO (had a drunkard CFI) and I’ve been by ATP (totally disappointing) and really like the FBO I’m at, with the exception of my dumb a$$ instructor.
I guess I’m not here to seek advice, because I already know what to do, but I just want to let you newbies out there hear my story so that you know when to say “STOP. YOU ARE FIRED” or figure out what is important to you. I couldn’t bring myself to uproot and stop my training to find the perfect CFI. So instead I sucked it up and rode it out.
We’ll see how the outcome goes in regards to my End of Course. Perhaps I may even get to fill out an evaluation on my CFI.
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