The FAA is after me!
01-03-2009, 12:45 PM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by GlasssPilot
I don't know much about the controller handbook, but I'm certain that pilot stated altitudes trump xponder stated altitudes. That's why they're always asking us to "report through xxx altitude".
If what you're saying was true (and it isn't) a huge portion of pilot deviations would've never occurred...
01-03-2009, 02:36 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 135 FO
Posts: 148
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
Huh? You're joking right? They ask pilots to "report through" certain altitudes when they don't receive a transponder reading...
If what you're saying was true (and it isn't) a huge portion of pilot deviations would've never occurred...
If what you're saying was true (and it isn't) a huge portion of pilot deviations would've never occurred...
).On another note... there's no need to call the number they give you. Call your attorney instead.
01-03-2009, 03:52 PM
#65
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Crew Lounge Recliner
Posts: 45
I didn’t realize that this has been an on-going discussion for over 8 months, but a couple of suggestions:
1. A pilot report trumps a Mode C reply. ATC: Say Altitude, Pilot response: Level, leaving whatever you needed to be doing! Even if you only have one transponder “Ah center let me try my back-up transponder” as you cycle the on-off switch, cover your posterior! Worse case possible, say nothing and ignore the call (you won’t be the first pilot to miss a “call”)
2. At some air traffic control facilities, there are serious labor/management issues. Most of the air traffic controllers that are bidding into supervision are not the agency’s best-est and brightest. It has to do with imposed work rules and pay freezes for labor, but management gets their pay raises. Management sucks… I don’t know many air traffic controllers that want to be air-cops, but management is looking over our shoulder.
3. There are a lot of new air traffic controllers in the pipe-line. Maybe it is inexperience, maybe a trainer and/or management type looking over the shoulder of the trainee, but most controllers I know have a no harm, no foul approach to altitude deviations if there is no loss of seperation.
4. There are no bells or whistles that go off if you are more than 300’ feet above/below your assigned altitude unless there was somebody 1000’ above/below you! If your Mode C is reporting plus or minus 200 feet of your assigned altitude, the radar display at the center shows you LEVEL! Controller response should be “confirm level at flight level 350 and altimeter 29.92” if you are off by 300 feet or more.
5. ASRS - Aviation Safety Reporting System Save it as one of your favorites!
I would never suggest that a pilot lie, that would violate the public trust in my position as a public servant. But, from my point of view as an air traffic controller at a large air traffic control facility and flying Part 135 on the side (hoping to someday pursue my dream to fly Part 121 full-time), that name on my pilot’s license is mine. I will protect it like a mama bear would protect her cub.
1. A pilot report trumps a Mode C reply. ATC: Say Altitude, Pilot response: Level, leaving whatever you needed to be doing! Even if you only have one transponder “Ah center let me try my back-up transponder” as you cycle the on-off switch, cover your posterior! Worse case possible, say nothing and ignore the call (you won’t be the first pilot to miss a “call”)
2. At some air traffic control facilities, there are serious labor/management issues. Most of the air traffic controllers that are bidding into supervision are not the agency’s best-est and brightest. It has to do with imposed work rules and pay freezes for labor, but management gets their pay raises. Management sucks… I don’t know many air traffic controllers that want to be air-cops, but management is looking over our shoulder.
3. There are a lot of new air traffic controllers in the pipe-line. Maybe it is inexperience, maybe a trainer and/or management type looking over the shoulder of the trainee, but most controllers I know have a no harm, no foul approach to altitude deviations if there is no loss of seperation.
4. There are no bells or whistles that go off if you are more than 300’ feet above/below your assigned altitude unless there was somebody 1000’ above/below you! If your Mode C is reporting plus or minus 200 feet of your assigned altitude, the radar display at the center shows you LEVEL! Controller response should be “confirm level at flight level 350 and altimeter 29.92” if you are off by 300 feet or more.
5. ASRS - Aviation Safety Reporting System Save it as one of your favorites!
I would never suggest that a pilot lie, that would violate the public trust in my position as a public servant. But, from my point of view as an air traffic controller at a large air traffic control facility and flying Part 135 on the side (hoping to someday pursue my dream to fly Part 121 full-time), that name on my pilot’s license is mine. I will protect it like a mama bear would protect her cub.
01-03-2009, 03:53 PM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by floridaCFII
A large number of pilot deviations (or perhaps violations is the correct term) occur because pilots admit fault over the radio and/or on the phone during a follow-up call. If you're off altitude and asked to verify altitude, just say the altitude you're supposed to be at... "Let me recycle my Mode C for you" (of course it's magically working right when it turns back on ).
On another note... there's no need to call the number they give you. Call your attorney instead.
).On another note... there's no need to call the number they give you. Call your attorney instead.
Now, if you wrote up the transponder right after the flight saying "altitude reported to me by the ATC seems to be 300 feet off from what the altimeter is showing" you might have saved the day... or so I've heard...
Last edited by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE; 01-03-2009 at 04:00 PM.
01-03-2009, 03:57 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by Bubba
... I would never suggest that a pilot lie, that would violate the public trust in my position as a public servant. But, from my point of view as an air traffic controller at a large air traffic control facility and flying Part 135 on the side (hoping to someday pursue my dream to fly Part 121 full-time), that name on my pilot’s license is mine. I will protect it like a mama bear would protect her cub.
Now that I've had a chance to do some international flying and have been able to compare I can say we have THE BEST ATC controllers in the world!
01-07-2009, 07:39 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 180
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
Huh? You're joking right? They ask pilots to "report through" certain altitudes when they don't receive a transponder reading...
If what you're saying was true (and it isn't) a huge portion of pilot deviations would've never occurred...
If what you're saying was true (and it isn't) a huge portion of pilot deviations would've never occurred...
Dude, you're wrong. Check your "tude" and realize you don't know everything.
Pilot stated altitudes DO trump altitude encoders.
ATC does ask pilots to report through altitudes even when they have the altitude encoder. Mostly when there is close crossing traffic they need to maintain separation. The pilot reported altitude serves two purposes; First if the pilot reports through the altitude then there is no conflict even if the xponder is lagging a bit (and they do). Second it serves as a reminder to the controller working the conflict.
Don't come off the top rope on me. Especially when you clearly don't know the difference between pig sh!t and apple butter.
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