Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-02-2018, 08:24 PM
#2811
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 191
Originally Posted by chinookwinds
Actually, that is not at all what the communication said. It says that Alpa will have “added participation in paring development”
“the scheduling committee will construct and control line solutions”
This is why it is so important at this time to NOT make assumptions to what has been agreed to.
Although I commend our NC for there hard work over the past 2 1/2 years, I strongly feel they DID NOT hear this pilot groups statement of NO PBS!! I can’t count how many times I heard from our NC, that they told the company that PBS was not open for discussion as they felt this pilot group would not ratify a TA with PBS language in it. And here we are???
With all that said, until the final draft is released to F9 pilots, I will not make a statement of a yes or no vote until I see the entire package.
I will say though, It damn sure better have some substantial improvements in many other areas. It better be very close to our increased pay rates, if not at least Jet Blue rates, min day, a 12 year longevity scale, minimum of 15% DC DOS, with increase to 16% within the first couple years, better LTD then what was earlier agreed to, industry leading scope language as well as VERY strong language that is clear and defining how a PBS system will work and be implemented. If most of these areas are not addressed, I will consider this an additional concession on top of what I have endured over the last 11+ years at Frontier Airlines and I would be a definite HELL NO vote. I am not optimistic as to what we will see in this agreement.
WTF!!!
Just noticed... did I say industry leading? Forgot, we were only looking for industry standard. We haven’t agreed to anything that resembles industry leading. Jet Blue, at least acquired a few industry leading agreements with their very first contract.
“the scheduling committee will construct and control line solutions”
This is why it is so important at this time to NOT make assumptions to what has been agreed to.
Although I commend our NC for there hard work over the past 2 1/2 years, I strongly feel they DID NOT hear this pilot groups statement of NO PBS!! I can’t count how many times I heard from our NC, that they told the company that PBS was not open for discussion as they felt this pilot group would not ratify a TA with PBS language in it. And here we are???
With all that said, until the final draft is released to F9 pilots, I will not make a statement of a yes or no vote until I see the entire package.
I will say though, It damn sure better have some substantial improvements in many other areas. It better be very close to our increased pay rates, if not at least Jet Blue rates, min day, a 12 year longevity scale, minimum of 15% DC DOS, with increase to 16% within the first couple years, better LTD then what was earlier agreed to, industry leading scope language as well as VERY strong language that is clear and defining how a PBS system will work and be implemented. If most of these areas are not addressed, I will consider this an additional concession on top of what I have endured over the last 11+ years at Frontier Airlines and I would be a definite HELL NO vote. I am not optimistic as to what we will see in this agreement.
WTF!!!
Just noticed... did I say industry leading? Forgot, we were only looking for industry standard. We haven’t agreed to anything that resembles industry leading. Jet Blue, at least acquired a few industry leading agreements with their very first contract.
11-02-2018, 09:06 PM
#2813
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 83
That could be any number of things but don’t be surprised when vacation days are assigned a value (hopefully at least 5 hours each) and then put on your schedule prior to the line build. That’s why the company wants PBS in the first place.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know how long the more vocal 8-10 guys that post on a regular basis on this forum have been at F9, but just an assumption and I could be wrong, but I would guess that most of you have been here 5 years or less. Don’t take this the wrong way, but let me be very clear for those that have been here only a few years or less.
I am mid level seniority in my base. When I vacation bid under our current bid system I will touch at a minimum of 40 hours of credit and at times as much as 50 hours. 40/7=5.7 HRS per VAC day, 50/7=7.1 HRS per VAC day. If our current vacation slide rules are not in place with PBS (post bid award) 5 hours per day is a concession. More importantly, this is a huge QOL issue as far as I am concerned. Probably one of the few areas that has helped me get through the roller coaster of 11+ years under a concessionary contract, a 1 1/2 year furlough and an assault on our seniority rights by Republic Airlines pilots under the Teamsters union. More of an assault by the Teamsters Union then by most of the pilots there by the way. I average 14-16 days off with a 7 day vacation and at times up to 20 days off.
I chose to come to Frontier Airlines because of this incredible pilot group and paid the price of low first year pay just like most everyone else that has come here.
Although I chose to stay here for better times ahead, I am as golden handcuffed as Bolo. With just 7 1/2 years left to my airline career, it just doesn't make financial sense to get out now. If just 5 years younger, rest assured I would have made an attempt to move along over the last 2 years of disrespect from this management group.
DO NOT sell yourselves short for a below average contract if that is what we get handed to us.
Rant over...
I don’t know how long the more vocal 8-10 guys that post on a regular basis on this forum have been at F9, but just an assumption and I could be wrong, but I would guess that most of you have been here 5 years or less. Don’t take this the wrong way, but let me be very clear for those that have been here only a few years or less.
I am mid level seniority in my base. When I vacation bid under our current bid system I will touch at a minimum of 40 hours of credit and at times as much as 50 hours. 40/7=5.7 HRS per VAC day, 50/7=7.1 HRS per VAC day. If our current vacation slide rules are not in place with PBS (post bid award) 5 hours per day is a concession. More importantly, this is a huge QOL issue as far as I am concerned. Probably one of the few areas that has helped me get through the roller coaster of 11+ years under a concessionary contract, a 1 1/2 year furlough and an assault on our seniority rights by Republic Airlines pilots under the Teamsters union. More of an assault by the Teamsters Union then by most of the pilots there by the way. I average 14-16 days off with a 7 day vacation and at times up to 20 days off.
I chose to come to Frontier Airlines because of this incredible pilot group and paid the price of low first year pay just like most everyone else that has come here.
Although I chose to stay here for better times ahead, I am as golden handcuffed as Bolo. With just 7 1/2 years left to my airline career, it just doesn't make financial sense to get out now. If just 5 years younger, rest assured I would have made an attempt to move along over the last 2 years of disrespect from this management group.
DO NOT sell yourselves short for a below average contract if that is what we get handed to us.
Rant over...
11-02-2018, 09:16 PM
#2814
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,396
I would like to thank the NC and the rest of the Union guys and gals for their effort and help. I will write them directly to thank them, but I want to publicly thank them as well.
I've mentioned this before, but wanted to make this observation again: This had to be one of the most challenging negotiations. Frontier pilot pay was sooo far behind, and Indigo is the most labor unfriendly management teams in the industry. This was bound to be difficult! I give credit to the NC for reaching an agreement.
Without having any details yet, any discussion of how someone will vote is just ridiculous. Wait, see, read and attend roadshows. Then decide.
Personally, I'm hesitant about PBS as I assume a lot of guys are. Clearly the devils in the details with PBS. I am the first to admit that I'm going to have a lot to learn about how it works before I vote. I think that we all have to understand and admit that our schedules already suck, and PBS cant make redeye's go away.
PBS is a system to split up flying between the pilots, and we've got crappy flying. PBS might not make all that much of a difference in the end? Still the same pilots doing the same flying, right? As long as there is flexibility built in and a decent vacation policy, it's at least worth taking a hard look before being an "automatic no"
Bring on the details and let's have a good, hard look!
I've mentioned this before, but wanted to make this observation again: This had to be one of the most challenging negotiations. Frontier pilot pay was sooo far behind, and Indigo is the most labor unfriendly management teams in the industry. This was bound to be difficult! I give credit to the NC for reaching an agreement.
Without having any details yet, any discussion of how someone will vote is just ridiculous. Wait, see, read and attend roadshows. Then decide.
Personally, I'm hesitant about PBS as I assume a lot of guys are. Clearly the devils in the details with PBS. I am the first to admit that I'm going to have a lot to learn about how it works before I vote. I think that we all have to understand and admit that our schedules already suck, and PBS cant make redeye's go away.
PBS is a system to split up flying between the pilots, and we've got crappy flying. PBS might not make all that much of a difference in the end? Still the same pilots doing the same flying, right? As long as there is flexibility built in and a decent vacation policy, it's at least worth taking a hard look before being an "automatic no"
Bring on the details and let's have a good, hard look!
11-02-2018, 09:51 PM
#2815
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: Fighting the Good fight
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by chinookwinds
Actually, that is not at all what the communication said. It says that Alpa will have “added participation in paring development”
“the scheduling committee will construct and control line solutions”
This is why it is so important at this time to NOT make assumptions to what has been agreed to.
Although I commend our NC for there hard work over the past 2 1/2 years, I strongly feel they DID NOT hear this pilot groups statement of NO PBS!! I can’t count how many times I heard from our NC, that they told the company that PBS was not open for discussion as they felt this pilot group would not ratify a TA with PBS language in it. And here we are???
With all that said, until the final draft is released to F9 pilots, I will not make a statement of a yes or no vote until I see the entire package.
I will say though, It damn sure better have some substantial improvements in many other areas. It better be very close to our increased pay rates, if not at least Jet Blue rates, min day, a 12 year longevity scale, minimum of 15% DC DOS, with increase to 16% within the first couple years, better LTD then what was earlier agreed to, industry leading scope language as well as VERY strong language that is clear and defining how a PBS system will work and be implemented. If most of these areas are not addressed, I will consider this an additional concession on top of what I have endured over the last 11+ years at Frontier Airlines and I would be a definite HELL NO vote. I am not optimistic as to what we will see in this agreement.
WTF!!!
Just noticed... did I say industry leading? Forgot, we were only looking for industry standard. We haven’t agreed to anything that resembles industry leading. Jet Blue, at least acquired a few industry leading agreements with their very first contract.
“the scheduling committee will construct and control line solutions”
This is why it is so important at this time to NOT make assumptions to what has been agreed to.
Although I commend our NC for there hard work over the past 2 1/2 years, I strongly feel they DID NOT hear this pilot groups statement of NO PBS!! I can’t count how many times I heard from our NC, that they told the company that PBS was not open for discussion as they felt this pilot group would not ratify a TA with PBS language in it. And here we are???
With all that said, until the final draft is released to F9 pilots, I will not make a statement of a yes or no vote until I see the entire package.
I will say though, It damn sure better have some substantial improvements in many other areas. It better be very close to our increased pay rates, if not at least Jet Blue rates, min day, a 12 year longevity scale, minimum of 15% DC DOS, with increase to 16% within the first couple years, better LTD then what was earlier agreed to, industry leading scope language as well as VERY strong language that is clear and defining how a PBS system will work and be implemented. If most of these areas are not addressed, I will consider this an additional concession on top of what I have endured over the last 11+ years at Frontier Airlines and I would be a definite HELL NO vote. I am not optimistic as to what we will see in this agreement.
WTF!!!
Just noticed... did I say industry leading? Forgot, we were only looking for industry standard. We haven’t agreed to anything that resembles industry leading. Jet Blue, at least acquired a few industry leading agreements with their very first contract.
As to my knowledge PBS was COMPLETELY OFF the table as of 2 1/2 weeks ago. Something changed.
Not saying I’m a no for PBS, but it must have a monetary value, since it will cost us money -ie its a concession.
An average week of vacation (touching trips dropped for pay) can range from 0 to 50/60+ hours depending on your bid. A daily value Limits your income for each vacation period. Mind you that’s for EACH Week of vacation.
We obviously must look at the whole package; but a PBS Concession Must have a dollar value that is above and beyond the pay scale. Since in itself, is a concession.
Awaiting further info.....
11-02-2018, 10:02 PM
#2816
Slave
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Hot tub
Posts: 1,348
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
WTF!!?
There was only 1 detail in the announcement??? And that is PBS, which is a CONCESSION! I thought we were through taking concessions??
I feel that my NC and MEC did not hear me!
There was only 1 detail in the announcement??? And that is PBS, which is a CONCESSION! I thought we were through taking concessions??
I feel that my NC and MEC did not hear me!
Just saying.....
11-03-2018, 12:32 AM
#2817
Hold my beer, watch this.
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: Airbus Pilot
Posts: 246
Originally Posted by JetBlast77
According to my friend at F9, the communication stated that ALPA would fully control the pairing build and final solution. This is the best possible language for PBS. It doesn’t allow the company (management) to have ANY say in the final solution. I’m not understanding what your fears are if this is the case unless you don’t trust your own union
11-03-2018, 12:53 AM
#2818
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: A319/A320/A321 CA
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by wt93205
Pairing construction and getting unstacked are two different things. Alpa can assist in making the pairings but then you end up getting unstacked and now you have nothing you wanted. I had that same language about pairing construction at Mesa but it didn't matter. When almost your whole schedule is awarded per the needs of the company aka unstacking every month, your preferences don't matter and about the only thing you do have is working a pairing that Alpa may have improved a touch but at that point it is already worse then line bidding. I have since found out that ASA PBS had a limit for unstacking for just November and December months and even then a limit of 30-50 percent of the group. This keeps the company honest with the staffing levels the other 10 months not to shrink the airline by using unstacking. Hope that makes sense.
“Importantly, the new contract provides for ALPA's added participation in pairing development and the ALPA Scheduling Committee will construct and control line solutions.”
If the ALPA Scheduling Committee constructs and controls the line solutions, which I interpret as PBS awards, does that mean they also have control over unstacking? Or is there a metaphorical Big Red Button that Pat Ryan can push to unstack the PBS awards while disregarding preferences (by seniority) every time there is a unforeseen “staffing issue”? If so, I’m going to say that sh!thead pushes the button every month.
11-03-2018, 01:00 AM
#2819
Hold my beer, watch this.
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: Airbus Pilot
Posts: 246
Keep in mind with PBS:
1. We lose integration. This is a big one. No more super seniority for the junior guys or trip drops from carry over trips.
2. We will have to see about this PBS vacation touching. I currently can get 23 days off with one week of vacation or credit insane amounts by picking stuff up that is pretty decent before relief lines are built and all the open time is narrowed down to pure junk. PBS historically awards any and all carryover trip credit, training, and vacation credit toward your min credit prior to any bidding taking place. Hence you only get lets say 28 hours credit for a week of vacation if done this way.
3. PBS allows for people to pick up max flying legal. This means if you are one number junior to the person above you who wants a 100 hours credit you have less to choose from. Currently that senior person gets a line, then adds more at a later date in MOT bidding. At least if you were one number junior you were able to start out with a slightly better line since all the flying wasn't already picked through and added before PBS even got to you. Also this means less lines built for the ones who currently may be getting relief lines or any line for that matter via our bidding process. It creates more reserves and this is what the company wants to happen.
4. If you are junior and you know how computer logic works you can out bid and get trips that senior people will wonder how you got and they didn't. This is the secret that is called experience with using PBS. Not something you will explain to the person Senior to you. It is like asking your kids how to use instagram. They really don't care to explain it to you because it is probably gonna be like learning another language. The grew up with it, you didn't. This is why Junior people want PBS and you will see many promoting it. I know I have my previous refined PBS bids ready to go...
5. Once PBS awards are out, it is like going straight to the 28th. What is done is done. You have very little wiggle room and the reserve coverage will be slim to none for the buffers so good luck dropping anything once the company right sizes itself. It is like setting prices for tickets and knowing how much they can oversell based on history.
6. PBS bidding using the default bid and only having to take 5 minutes each month is a huge reason I liked PBS. However is our current system which takes a day or two to bid worth giving up for this for the unique scheduling system we have? This is where language is huge.
7. If we have unstacking limits like ASA had over just Nov, and Dec, that fixes a huge amount of dislike for what makes PBS bad. If not, here is the problem. With line bidding if the company is short staffed they will either have to cancel vacations (which we are suing them for) or assign all uncovered flying by paying premium pay. With PBS, they just assign it using PBS by unstacking it onto the pilot group at straight time. It destroys your schedule while saving the company money. Hence why unstacking limits are the number one thing I will look at first to see what language we have for it.
If the credit system is right, the language address unstacking, and a few other things like market rate pay, it could be acceptable, but until we see it we will wonder why our union made a 180 on PBS.
1. We lose integration. This is a big one. No more super seniority for the junior guys or trip drops from carry over trips.
2. We will have to see about this PBS vacation touching. I currently can get 23 days off with one week of vacation or credit insane amounts by picking stuff up that is pretty decent before relief lines are built and all the open time is narrowed down to pure junk. PBS historically awards any and all carryover trip credit, training, and vacation credit toward your min credit prior to any bidding taking place. Hence you only get lets say 28 hours credit for a week of vacation if done this way.
3. PBS allows for people to pick up max flying legal. This means if you are one number junior to the person above you who wants a 100 hours credit you have less to choose from. Currently that senior person gets a line, then adds more at a later date in MOT bidding. At least if you were one number junior you were able to start out with a slightly better line since all the flying wasn't already picked through and added before PBS even got to you. Also this means less lines built for the ones who currently may be getting relief lines or any line for that matter via our bidding process. It creates more reserves and this is what the company wants to happen.
4. If you are junior and you know how computer logic works you can out bid and get trips that senior people will wonder how you got and they didn't. This is the secret that is called experience with using PBS. Not something you will explain to the person Senior to you. It is like asking your kids how to use instagram. They really don't care to explain it to you because it is probably gonna be like learning another language. The grew up with it, you didn't. This is why Junior people want PBS and you will see many promoting it. I know I have my previous refined PBS bids ready to go...
5. Once PBS awards are out, it is like going straight to the 28th. What is done is done. You have very little wiggle room and the reserve coverage will be slim to none for the buffers so good luck dropping anything once the company right sizes itself. It is like setting prices for tickets and knowing how much they can oversell based on history.
6. PBS bidding using the default bid and only having to take 5 minutes each month is a huge reason I liked PBS. However is our current system which takes a day or two to bid worth giving up for this for the unique scheduling system we have? This is where language is huge.
7. If we have unstacking limits like ASA had over just Nov, and Dec, that fixes a huge amount of dislike for what makes PBS bad. If not, here is the problem. With line bidding if the company is short staffed they will either have to cancel vacations (which we are suing them for) or assign all uncovered flying by paying premium pay. With PBS, they just assign it using PBS by unstacking it onto the pilot group at straight time. It destroys your schedule while saving the company money. Hence why unstacking limits are the number one thing I will look at first to see what language we have for it.
If the credit system is right, the language address unstacking, and a few other things like market rate pay, it could be acceptable, but until we see it we will wonder why our union made a 180 on PBS.
Last edited by wt93205; 11-03-2018 at 01:33 AM.
11-03-2018, 01:05 AM
#2820
Hold my beer, watch this.
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: Airbus Pilot
Posts: 246
Originally Posted by MtnPeakCruiser
That makes plenty sense. How would you interpret this quote from ALPA?
“Importantly, the new contract provides for ALPA's added participation in pairing development and the ALPA Scheduling Committee will construct and control line solutions.”
If the ALPA Scheduling Committee constructs and controls the line solutions, which I interpret as PBS awards, does that mean they also have control over unstacking? Or is there a metaphorical Big Red Button that Pat Ryan can push to unstack the PBS awards while disregarding preferences (by seniority) every time there is a unforeseen “staffing issue”? If so, I’m going to say that sh!thead pushes the button every month.
“Importantly, the new contract provides for ALPA's added participation in pairing development and the ALPA Scheduling Committee will construct and control line solutions.”
If the ALPA Scheduling Committee constructs and controls the line solutions, which I interpret as PBS awards, does that mean they also have control over unstacking? Or is there a metaphorical Big Red Button that Pat Ryan can push to unstack the PBS awards while disregarding preferences (by seniority) every time there is a unforeseen “staffing issue”? If so, I’m going to say that sh!thead pushes the button every month.
Last edited by wt93205; 11-03-2018 at 01:17 AM.
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