FAULTPUSH

I wonder if pref bid is a net sum zero proposition (i.e. any benefit to the company is through an equal loss to the pilot group). If not, and we got a cut of the financial benefit to the company, it might be worth it with the right work rules governing the bidding process.

As an example, I can see where pref bid could cost me the ability to make a 7 day vacation block into a 15-20 day off stretch, but perhaps the savings to the company would be great enough that they would entertain the idea of letting us use those 7 vacation days to cover two consecutive trips that were 3 and 4 days long, or giving us 6 weeks of vacation or 28 individual days instead of 4 weeks.

As another example, last year the current rules let me turn my 3 days of sim and 2 days of ground school into about 60 hours of pay vs the 20 that I "should" have been paid. That's about 4% more pay for the year. It might be worth it to me to have a 4% higher pay scale and lose that benefit, which is net cost financial zero to the company, but might be worth it to them for the reduction in schedule adjustments.

full of luv

To the company it's not just about the money, it's about the productivity of the group as well which equals less overall pilots, less benefits, etc.

When you do PBS, what has happened at every company so far, is that those vacation/trng/mil leave days are dropped on your sked before the computer even runs your line. The net result is that you are now avail for sked on every other day of the month, so the company basically has converted your vacation/trng/whatever into a monetary payout (and week off) but still gets an opportunity to fly your block hours right up to whatever limit you have in your contract. THAT is the real savings to any company with PBS.

The fanciful idea of dropping your leave on your sked after PBS has run is an internet myth that has never been offered at another company, and from the companies standpoint, they'd rather just stick with line bidding if that were the only option for implementing PBS.

For your idea, you can mandate that every vacation is worth 7 days of flying, but the rub is what are those days worth, and how much credit towards the month do you get to count before PBS runs.

Trowserchilli

The company is not interested in PBS.

Nearly every legacy has figured out a way to make it work though.

I wouldn't mind the amount of PTO time B6 gets. They can use PTO time to drop drips during their vacation month. Easier than getting hung up every year on trying to get a line that maximizes your vacation time.
Bid your vacation if you don't get it use PTO time to drop trips and still have the same vacation.

FAULTPUSH

Oops - I should have figured that out. Perhaps the 7 days gets added to your guaranteed days off.

Gary et al

Lurked here for quite a long time, but finally figured it was time to post.

PBS.
Its not all bad, not only the top 10-15% are happy, and you can turn 1 week of vacation into 20 days off. Its all in the work rules and knowing how to bid, i.e. how the computer assigns trips.

Having used PBS at my previous airline I can say that even being below 60% up the list I would still get a line may not have been perfect, overall I would get close to what I'd want. Vacation months...even being just off reserve I was able to get 21 straight days off. Having training and vacation both in the same month, which happened to be a December, I only flew 2 days! I honestly had a great experience wth PBS. What we couldn't do is make money in vacation months like can be done here.

I'm not saying PBS is great, what we have now is certainly better overall, but its not because of line bidding. Its the freedom of dropping and picking up and re-organizing your schedule. The process of bidding a pre-built line without having conflict pay protection really isn't that amazing.

If PBS was in the next contract...my guess is that I'd be a NO vote. The right language needs to be present to protect the pilots from what COULD be done under PBS, and it certainly will save the company money and that would need to be monetized for us. But the blanket statement that PBS is bad, its simply not true.


A couple quick specifics of items that would need to be present:

Make vacation days worth 4.5hrs per day for people trying to make money and 5.5hrs per day pre credit for people wanting time off, only need to fly 36.5 hrs to complete month, still get 75 pay.

Set Calendar min day pay to 5hrs

No Globalization (equalizing lines, awarding senior trips to junior pilots)

ALPA controls pairings

Minimum 3 days off after trip unless waived

Max 2 red eye trips per month unless waived, red eye trips left over will go to open time and subsequently reserve.

Company sets target line value to be flown by each pilot, pilots can set their personal threshold to target +/- 20hrs

singlepilot

I like the way you think Gary.
I would prefer 4 days between trips
like spirit has ( one of our peers according to manganement so that should be a gimme)
I would also like to be able to drop down well below 70 hours in a month.
Preferably 0 if one chooses too.

Trowserchilli

The 4 day deal is nice.

Management at Spirit is pushing for PBS and eliminating that 4 days off.

1900luxuryliner

From what I understand, it's 4 days off between "work blocks", not "trips". So, you may have a 4 day trip, backed up to a 2 day trip (or any conceivable combination of trips), to complete your "work block". Seems like that would encourage the company to fill up six full days of flying with any crazy combination of trips, just to maximize your "work block" efficiency. I could be very wrong. Maybe a Spirit guy can chime in how this work rule plays out in practice, with regards to actual schedule creation.

sulkair

You guys are scaring me with all this talk about PBS and under what circumstances you would entertain it.

IT'S A GIANT CONCESSION; PERIOD!

Trowserchilli

It's not even being entertained.