Originally Posted by sab1250

I honestly don’t care if we get presented information that shows F9 would be unprofitable with higher rates! If the company’s business model doesn’t support market rate A320 pilots, then that model needs to change! Pilots should be a fixed cost like fuel! That being said, I am not demanding Delta/United/American rates, but I am demanding INDUSTRY AVERAGE rates, as PROMISED by our Union from Day 1! This offer is soooo far behind industry average, and by our own union’s admission btw (see Negotiators Newsletter #36 from 08/23/18, click on Modified Term Sheet). Do you remember how we set our rates from day one? Industry Average rates directly between top and bottom. This AIP isn’t even close to our Industry Average ask from 2 years ago, let alone our modified ask from August 2018! Just as an example from my seat and longevity, this AIP offers me a pay rate on 03/02/2019 (not even the lower DOS RATES) $36.92 less then what our union determined to be INDUSTRY AVERAGE in August 2018, which will pay me $33,228 less in 2019 then the average of our peers! What’s WORSE, the current AIP offers me a rate $15.83 less than our ORIGINAL ASK (which didn’t include PBS btw) at a year 1 loss of $14,247 FROM OUR ORIGINAL ASK! These numbers are based on 75hr garuntee, and are equally atrocious at all longevity’s! The average year 1 loss (pay less then Industry Average) for CA’s is $30,755.25 (from F9 Union’s August 2018 Modified Term Sheet), for FO’s the loss is an average of $19,638.75 (pay less then Industry Average)! Our Union PROMISED us they WOULD NOT CAVE, and Stand for INDUSTRY AVERAGE PAY, and I Believed them...stupid me! I feel duped! Can I please have the last 3 years of dues money back?

And the saddest part is, this is just an example of industry average lagging pay. It doesn’t even account for everything else we WON’T get in this deal that our peers enjoy in their contracts!

Originally Posted by motorboatin

What world are you living in?? You CANNOT convince reasonable people that because the union agreed to a lower rate than one that was published as a PROPOSED rate, that you then use that proposed rate as a benchmark to measure your losses. The only real LOSS would be a new rate that is lower than your current rate. So any rate that is higher than your current rate is a gain. Period, it's undebatable. Now you may not be happy with the rate that was achieved, but to say you're taking a loss is just a demonstration of a fundamental lack of knowledge and bias based upon your individual unrealistic expectations.

All this talk of taking losses is just mind boggling. The only actual measure is one that analyzes where you are at current book compared to where we are going.

Originally Posted by V1 McFlyerson

It's cool man. You're good with being a discount ULCC trash pilot working under a discount ULCC trash contract. It's fine really, but I agree 100% with him and I disagree 100% with you. Now, it's true I'm not going for "reasonable people" in your -gettin' bent over world-.

You'd vote yes on a contract that paid you as much a 4th year UAL FO instead of the 3 year UAL FO that makes more than you now. No problem.

Originally Posted by Patternholder

You will still be a ULCC trash pilot regardless of the rates. Delta plus 10% won’t change the fact that you are hauling around people that couldn’t afford to take the bus. Perhaps you made the wrong choice of airlines?

As for me...while the rates aren’t what we had hoped for...it’s a significant improvement and we will be back at the table in 3 1/2 years...probably or sooner if we merge.

Originally Posted by motorboatin

What world are you living in?? You CANNOT convince reasonable people that because the union agreed to a lower rate than one that was published as a PROPOSED rate, that you then use that proposed rate as a benchmark to measure your losses. The only real LOSS would be a new rate that is lower than your current rate. So any rate that is higher than your current rate is a gain. Period, it's undebatable. Now you may not be happy with the rate that was achieved, but to say you're taking a loss is just a demonstration of a fundamental lack of knowledge and bias based upon your individual unrealistic expectations.

All this talk of taking losses is just mind boggling. The only actual measure is one that analyzes where you are at current book compared to where we are going.

Originally Posted by I like BIG Bus

Everyone also needs to keep in mind that united will get a 4% bump in Jan. Moving the bar yet again. 1st year Cpt will be $260 and top rate will jump to $282...FO rates will be 2nd year $140 and top at $193. So it will take our 12 yr captains until 2022 to make first year United pay, and our 1-11yr captains won’t make it, ever. I wonder what United rates are going to look like in 2023. I know rates are only part of the picture, but this picture is quite obscene and embarrassing.

Originally Posted by butthert

What is upgrade time at UAL for A320 ?

Originally Posted by I like BIG Bus

I think you’re on the wrong forum.