Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-23-2018, 07:17 AM
#3621
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 146
Originally Posted by Aero1900
Seriously?
This is lowly, POS Frontier. Did you forget that we are owned by Indigo Partners, the kings of low cost airlines? Biffle said out loud "we don't believe there is any value in good will." These are the guys who cancelled our vacations out of spite. Did you seriously expect to get paid Alaaka pay rates? I didn't.
Face reality guys, we work for scumbags running a ULCC. This just is what it is. We have achieved a huge pay raise and moved into the pattern. If we vote no, we will get maybe a few more dollars, but also probably give up something else to get it.
Indigo won't own Frontier forever, but for now they do. This TA takes us from earning half of the legacy pay to earning 85% to 90% as much. We will live to fight another day. We simply weren't going to go from the very bottom to the top in one contract.
No one wants to read or post these realities, but we can't just keep saying things that are unrealistic. Alaska airlines is an extremely well run, profitable airline with almost unbelievable customer loyalty. They offer realible, high end service to business travelers. They are also a company that values their employees and customers.
Frontier is the exact opposite of that. We are a dumpster fire that sees our customers as replaceable and our employees as a cost.
What the heck did you expect?
We have achieved huge gains in this TA. Our senior guys are going to make big bucks, and our junior guys are going to make huge DC plan improvements. This is close enough to as good as it's going to get for us while we are owned by guys who see us as nothing more than a cost.
I know that a lot of you will say that we are solidifying our place at the bottom with this TA. I totally get that, and I don't disagree. However, as a small, ULCC we are going to be near the bottom. That's the reality. The question is, how far below are you willing to accept? This deal takes us from so far behind its hard to comprehend to within striking distance. A 50% raise is huge win.
Flame away
This is lowly, POS Frontier. Did you forget that we are owned by Indigo Partners, the kings of low cost airlines? Biffle said out loud "we don't believe there is any value in good will." These are the guys who cancelled our vacations out of spite. Did you seriously expect to get paid Alaaka pay rates? I didn't.
Face reality guys, we work for scumbags running a ULCC. This just is what it is. We have achieved a huge pay raise and moved into the pattern. If we vote no, we will get maybe a few more dollars, but also probably give up something else to get it.
Indigo won't own Frontier forever, but for now they do. This TA takes us from earning half of the legacy pay to earning 85% to 90% as much. We will live to fight another day. We simply weren't going to go from the very bottom to the top in one contract.
No one wants to read or post these realities, but we can't just keep saying things that are unrealistic. Alaska airlines is an extremely well run, profitable airline with almost unbelievable customer loyalty. They offer realible, high end service to business travelers. They are also a company that values their employees and customers.
Frontier is the exact opposite of that. We are a dumpster fire that sees our customers as replaceable and our employees as a cost.
What the heck did you expect?
We have achieved huge gains in this TA. Our senior guys are going to make big bucks, and our junior guys are going to make huge DC plan improvements. This is close enough to as good as it's going to get for us while we are owned by guys who see us as nothing more than a cost.
I know that a lot of you will say that we are solidifying our place at the bottom with this TA. I totally get that, and I don't disagree. However, as a small, ULCC we are going to be near the bottom. That's the reality. The question is, how far below are you willing to accept? This deal takes us from so far behind its hard to comprehend to within striking distance. A 50% raise is huge win.
Flame away
11-23-2018, 07:19 AM
#3622
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by Aero1900
Seriously?
This is lowly, POS Frontier. Did you forget that we are owned by Indigo Partners, the kings of low cost airlines? Biffle said out loud "we don't believe there is any value in good will." These are the guys who cancelled our vacations out of spite. Did you seriously expect to get paid Alaaka pay rates? I didn't.
Face reality guys, we work for scumbags running a ULCC. This just is what it is. We have achieved a huge pay raise and moved into the pattern. If we vote no, we will get maybe a few more dollars, but also probably give up something else to get it.
Indigo won't own Frontier forever, but for now they do. This TA takes us from earning half of the legacy pay to earning 85% to 90% as much. We will live to fight another day. We simply weren't going to go from the very bottom to the top in one contract.
No one wants to read or post these realities, but we can't just keep saying things that are unrealistic. Alaska airlines is an extremely well run, profitable airline with almost unbelievable customer loyalty. They offer realible, high end service to business travelers. They are also a company that values their employees and customers.
Frontier is the exact opposite of that. We are a dumpster fire that sees our customers as replaceable and our employees as a cost.
What the heck did you expect?
We have achieved huge gains in this TA. Our senior guys are going to make big bucks, and our junior guys are going to make huge DC plan improvements. This is close enough to as good as it's going to get for us while we are owned by guys who see us as nothing more than a cost.
I know that a lot of you will say that we are solidifying our place at the bottom with this TA. I totally get that, and I don't disagree. However, as a small, ULCC we are going to be near the bottom. That's the reality. The question is, how far below are you willing to accept? This deal takes us from so far behind its hard to comprehend to within striking distance. A 50% raise is huge win.
Flame away
This is lowly, POS Frontier. Did you forget that we are owned by Indigo Partners, the kings of low cost airlines? Biffle said out loud "we don't believe there is any value in good will." These are the guys who cancelled our vacations out of spite. Did you seriously expect to get paid Alaaka pay rates? I didn't.
Face reality guys, we work for scumbags running a ULCC. This just is what it is. We have achieved a huge pay raise and moved into the pattern. If we vote no, we will get maybe a few more dollars, but also probably give up something else to get it.
Indigo won't own Frontier forever, but for now they do. This TA takes us from earning half of the legacy pay to earning 85% to 90% as much. We will live to fight another day. We simply weren't going to go from the very bottom to the top in one contract.
No one wants to read or post these realities, but we can't just keep saying things that are unrealistic. Alaska airlines is an extremely well run, profitable airline with almost unbelievable customer loyalty. They offer realible, high end service to business travelers. They are also a company that values their employees and customers.
Frontier is the exact opposite of that. We are a dumpster fire that sees our customers as replaceable and our employees as a cost.
What the heck did you expect?
We have achieved huge gains in this TA. Our senior guys are going to make big bucks, and our junior guys are going to make huge DC plan improvements. This is close enough to as good as it's going to get for us while we are owned by guys who see us as nothing more than a cost.
I know that a lot of you will say that we are solidifying our place at the bottom with this TA. I totally get that, and I don't disagree. However, as a small, ULCC we are going to be near the bottom. That's the reality. The question is, how far below are you willing to accept? This deal takes us from so far behind its hard to comprehend to within striking distance. A 50% raise is huge win.
Flame away
11-23-2018, 10:47 AM
#3623
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 491
To those who continue to suggest: “Go someplace else if you don’t like this contract.”
Please.
You’ve got to understand that it’s not just that simple. If you’ve been in the industry more than 10 minutes, I can’t conceive of a reason you’d think it’s this simple. This concept has been discussed over and over, but I’ll hit the highlights if you really are that uninformed:
1. Seniority. You’d start at the bottom anywhere you go.
2. Pay. You’d start at the bottom anywhere you’d go.
3. Age. Very few people over the age of 45 are able to endure starting over due to family obligations.
4. Retirement. Starting over at a new airline means you’ll have lower pay for some period of time. The exact period of time you should be maxing out your retirement so that the time value of money can be working for you during the last 15 to 20 years as a 121 pilot.
I could go on, but I fear my thoughtful explanation is wasted on your type because you already know this and choose to ignore it. Pointing out the obvious usually doesn’t sway your type of irrational/juvenile commentary.
Stop and think for just a moment. Really. Take a deep breath.
If it were as easy as you suggest to “just go someplace else,” do you think folks would have stuck with Frontier this long? Do you think any of us would get so worked up about getting at least an average deal?
Those were meant to be rhetorical questions (look up the concept if necessary) but given your history of shallow thought, I’ll provide the answer to both questions: NO.
Please.
You’ve got to understand that it’s not just that simple. If you’ve been in the industry more than 10 minutes, I can’t conceive of a reason you’d think it’s this simple. This concept has been discussed over and over, but I’ll hit the highlights if you really are that uninformed:
1. Seniority. You’d start at the bottom anywhere you go.
2. Pay. You’d start at the bottom anywhere you’d go.
3. Age. Very few people over the age of 45 are able to endure starting over due to family obligations.
4. Retirement. Starting over at a new airline means you’ll have lower pay for some period of time. The exact period of time you should be maxing out your retirement so that the time value of money can be working for you during the last 15 to 20 years as a 121 pilot.
I could go on, but I fear my thoughtful explanation is wasted on your type because you already know this and choose to ignore it. Pointing out the obvious usually doesn’t sway your type of irrational/juvenile commentary.
Stop and think for just a moment. Really. Take a deep breath.
If it were as easy as you suggest to “just go someplace else,” do you think folks would have stuck with Frontier this long? Do you think any of us would get so worked up about getting at least an average deal?
Those were meant to be rhetorical questions (look up the concept if necessary) but given your history of shallow thought, I’ll provide the answer to both questions: NO.
11-23-2018, 12:35 PM
#3624
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
Originally Posted by dracir1
So is it better to...
Vote this AIP down in hopes of a new one that has a completely unknown chance of being much better (months from now)?
OR
Vote this AIP in and receive a healthy wage raise but also show the world and ourselves that we consider our worth bottom tier of all domestic A-321 qualified pilots?
Vote this AIP down in hopes of a new one that has a completely unknown chance of being much better (months from now)?
OR
Vote this AIP in and receive a healthy wage raise but also show the world and ourselves that we consider our worth bottom tier of all domestic A-321 qualified pilots?
Something else to consider is if we vote it in 70%-80% in favor then we tell Indigo that not only are we happy to be near the bottom, but that we’d accept even less next time around.
Regardless I’ve come to accept that this is going to pass. While I’m not happy about the fact that our expectations were set too high by our union leadership (in my opinion), once this is done and over with I hope our group is no longer divided by “yes voters” and “no voters” or “company men” and “militant types”. Regardless of what camp you’re in this is going to be your contract for the next 8 (+/-2) years. Let’s move forward as a unified group.
11-23-2018, 02:04 PM
#3625
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,360
Are you my..,,
Anyone remember the scene in Pulp Fiction where Marcellus (Ving Rhames) tells Butch (Bruce Willis) to take a dive in his boxing match? Where he talks about the day of the fight he may feel a slight sting - which is pride - and how he needs to ignore that and do what he knows to be the best deal he’s ever gonna get? If you YouTube it, the scene is aptly titled (see for yourself).
Well, we’re the Butch in this situation. Who are you to Marcellus (Indigo)?
We all know what Butch does in the end...and the cost he endures because of it. Are you willing to pay that cost?
I am. I say we accept EVERYTHING in this AIP except for 1 item. Duration. Send it back with specific instructions to reduce the length to 3 years.
Could Indigo refuse? Yeah. But they could agree...if they’re gonna sell us, what difference would it make to them?
Well, we’re the Butch in this situation. Who are you to Marcellus (Indigo)?
We all know what Butch does in the end...and the cost he endures because of it. Are you willing to pay that cost?
I am. I say we accept EVERYTHING in this AIP except for 1 item. Duration. Send it back with specific instructions to reduce the length to 3 years.
Could Indigo refuse? Yeah. But they could agree...if they’re gonna sell us, what difference would it make to them?
Last edited by dracir1; 11-23-2018 at 02:34 PM.
11-23-2018, 06:28 PM
#3626
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,105
Originally Posted by dracir1
Anyone remember the scene in Pulp Fiction where Marcellus (Ving Rhames) tells Butch (Bruce Willis) to take a dive in his boxing match? Where he talks about the day of the fight he may feel a slight sting - which is pride - and how he needs to ignore that and do what he knows to be the best deal he’s ever gonna get? If you YouTube it, the scene is aptly titled (see for yourself).
Well, we’re the Butch in this situation. Who are you to Marcellus (Indigo)?
We all know what Butch does in the end...and the cost he endures because of it. Are you willing to pay that cost?
I am. I say we accept EVERYTHING in this AIP except for 1 item. Duration. Send it back with specific instructions to reduce the length to 3 years.
Could Indigo refuse? Yeah. But they could agree...if they’re gonna sell us, what difference would it make to them?
Well, we’re the Butch in this situation. Who are you to Marcellus (Indigo)?
We all know what Butch does in the end...and the cost he endures because of it. Are you willing to pay that cost?
I am. I say we accept EVERYTHING in this AIP except for 1 item. Duration. Send it back with specific instructions to reduce the length to 3 years.
Could Indigo refuse? Yeah. But they could agree...if they’re gonna sell us, what difference would it make to them?
11-23-2018, 08:12 PM
#3627
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by motorboatin
This is amazing! Were you strapped down and forced to watch the aforementioned video? I guarantee you watched the entire thing and it pi$$ed you off because the facts counter you and your less than sophisticated contingencies emotional reaction to the TA you thought was going to backdoor you into a Delta like contract.
Thrown in your face..hahaha! Go to the monkey habitat at the San Diego Zoo.
Thrown in your face..hahaha! Go to the monkey habitat at the San Diego Zoo.
11-23-2018, 09:20 PM
#3628
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by Aero1900
Seriously?
This is lowly, POS Frontier. Did you forget that we are owned by Indigo Partners, the kings of low cost airlines? Biffle said out loud "we don't believe there is any value in good will." These are the guys who cancelled our vacations out of spite. Did you seriously expect to get paid Alaaka pay rates? I didn't.
Face reality guys, we work for scumbags running a ULCC. This just is what it is. We have achieved a huge pay raise and moved into the pattern. If we vote no, we will get maybe a few more dollars, but also probably give up something else to get it.
Indigo won't own Frontier forever, but for now they do. This TA takes us from earning half of the legacy pay to earning 85% to 90% as much. We will live to fight another day. We simply weren't going to go from the very bottom to the top in one contract.
No one wants to read or post these realities, but we can't just keep saying things that are unrealistic. Alaska airlines is an extremely well run, profitable airline with almost unbelievable customer loyalty. They offer realible, high end service to business travelers. They are also a company that values their employees and customers.
Frontier is the exact opposite of that. We are a dumpster fire that sees our customers as replaceable and our employees as a cost.
What the heck did you expect?
We have achieved huge gains in this TA. Our senior guys are going to make big bucks, and our junior guys are going to make huge DC plan improvements. This is close enough to as good as it's going to get for us while we are owned by guys who see us as nothing more than a cost.
I know that a lot of you will say that we are solidifying our place at the bottom with this TA. I totally get that, and I don't disagree. However, as a small, ULCC we are going to be near the bottom. That's the reality. The question is, how far below are you willing to accept? This deal takes us from so far behind its hard to comprehend to within striking distance. A 50% raise is huge win.
Flame away
This is lowly, POS Frontier. Did you forget that we are owned by Indigo Partners, the kings of low cost airlines? Biffle said out loud "we don't believe there is any value in good will." These are the guys who cancelled our vacations out of spite. Did you seriously expect to get paid Alaaka pay rates? I didn't.
Face reality guys, we work for scumbags running a ULCC. This just is what it is. We have achieved a huge pay raise and moved into the pattern. If we vote no, we will get maybe a few more dollars, but also probably give up something else to get it.
Indigo won't own Frontier forever, but for now they do. This TA takes us from earning half of the legacy pay to earning 85% to 90% as much. We will live to fight another day. We simply weren't going to go from the very bottom to the top in one contract.
No one wants to read or post these realities, but we can't just keep saying things that are unrealistic. Alaska airlines is an extremely well run, profitable airline with almost unbelievable customer loyalty. They offer realible, high end service to business travelers. They are also a company that values their employees and customers.
Frontier is the exact opposite of that. We are a dumpster fire that sees our customers as replaceable and our employees as a cost.
What the heck did you expect?
We have achieved huge gains in this TA. Our senior guys are going to make big bucks, and our junior guys are going to make huge DC plan improvements. This is close enough to as good as it's going to get for us while we are owned by guys who see us as nothing more than a cost.
I know that a lot of you will say that we are solidifying our place at the bottom with this TA. I totally get that, and I don't disagree. However, as a small, ULCC we are going to be near the bottom. That's the reality. The question is, how far below are you willing to accept? This deal takes us from so far behind its hard to comprehend to within striking distance. A 50% raise is huge win.
Flame away
11-24-2018, 04:46 AM
#3629
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2018
Position: FL
Posts: 375
Originally Posted by DimpledBalls
Spineless. Completely spineless. Embarrassed to have ever been in the same cockpit with you.
11-24-2018, 04:53 AM
#3630
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 461
Originally Posted by therapysession
I respect BK, but I think a lot of people thought a 5% increase on TA 2 was low. Hence the skewed numbers. If you bump that up to 10% (a new hourly wage still below B6 by nearly $20) then the spreadsheet comes out remarkably different.
If they came back with 5% then I'd vote that contract down too. Never did see Own-occupation, 15% dc, 10%-15% rate increases over x months calculation.
I might even soften my stance if the union/company would be real about what an underwhelming and disappointing TA they're going to have us vote on. But slapping this these bullet points on the table, adding pbs, and telling us it's a market rate TA, has caused them to lose all credibility. They're full of pronghorn dung.
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