Biffsteritis

Indigo has already made it clear with the other employee groups that they would love nothing more than to make this a stepping stone airline. This TA may aim to accomplish the same thing with the pilot group.

The money at the top retains the senior pilots required to pass the TA. t
The mid level rates are just enough to attract new pilots until they upgrade for a year or two. The poor quality of life and industry bottom (albeit much better than the regionals) pay will creating a revolving door airline with very few pilot ever obtaining the longevity necessary to reach the highest levels of pay, thus further minimizing the airline’s labor cost.

Is this what we are willing to accept for industry bottom pay? Another stepping stone airline? I, for one, was hoping this was my final airline. If this TA passes, many of us will be forced to reconsider.

Wheelswatch

It's a simple equation: You get 35 hours under the new TA. If you can beat that consistently now, under current book, then you currently get more days off in a row than you will under the new TA. If you cannot beat 35 hours now, you'll notice no degradation.

Aero1900

I agree with you guys. I realize PBS is likely a concession here and we can just hope that we really did negotiate good terms for it.

My concern with the NO vote is purely a time value of money issue. If you look at how long the past 2 TAs that were voted down took to reach a satisfactory deal, it was lengthy. If we wait that long, we loose.

BKs calculator proves it. Play with it. Assume it takes us 17 months to reach TA2 like it did for Delta. We loose our asses if that happens.

As I've explained here before, we got out negotiated. The deal is pretty lame. But we now have a choice. Yes or no. The unfortunate thing is, NO costs us a lot of money and I believe we will not recoup the lost wages.

I totally understand and respect all the NO voters. I am not at all critical of you guys. But as I look at the money lost in voting NO, I feel it's a gamble i can't take.

Think for a moment about a 2nd year FO. They get a 58% raise plus another 12% DC. They will never make that up. And guys with less than 5 or 10 years to retirement won't ever make it up either. It Sucks but it's true

V1 McFlyerson

You don’t have any way of knowing this.

Mugatu

I just don’t see our TA2 taking that long. Delta TA2 doesn’t compare because the pilots had the upper hand. Delta TA1 wanted to remove profit sharing and the pilots laughed all the way to the bank. Pilots had a huge upper hand.

Indigo needs a contract. They’re at a point they need to grow and pilots to fill the classes. There isn’t much to change with TA1 to get a yes vote. Reassignment paying 150%, 3 year contract, LTD, signing bonus adjustment, a couple other things and BINGO, Indigo gets PBS, huge flexibility, and their beloved CASM stays industry leading.

BK’s spreadsheet doesn’t look at the huge work rule losses we will live with under TA1. 12-18 months is unrealistic also. Remember, Indigo came to us for TA...they didn’t do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

HeisenbergBlue

So from what I can see there about 30 loud enough people that will vote No, and all those will be cancelled out by 30 Yes votes. Do you really think there will half the company voting No? This is going to pass at 60% may as well accept that now. Or maybe stop b****ing in your echo chamber here on APC and talk to people...

RustyChain

We want to believe that, but it's not true. We aren't in a bubble. We are pilots and for better or worse, our seniority system binds us to our airlines.

Harry Canyon

I think you misunderstood my point.

You are saying that because Indigo provides a crappy product, that we only deserve a crappy contract.

RustyChain

Very true, but seeing how we will never be allowed to strike, our options are limited. We have potentially leverage with newhire classes, but that is paradoxical to getting a contract. The more likely we are to see a contract, the easier it is to fill classes, and the less leverage we have to actually get a contract.

What is indigo's plan "B"? If we vote it down are we doing it at the cost of growth? I know it's easy to say that it doesn't matter, but for people on reserve or about to upgrade, growth has tangible benefit. I think it ought to be considered when you vote no, just like you should consider how long it would take to see TA2, and how much you have lost in the interim vs how much more TA2 has to be vs TA1 to make the whole ordeal worthwhile.

I would also like to point out that some people in here sound like they want to vote it down just to punish Indigo. I think that motivation is clearly a mistake.

V1 McFlyerson

I’m voting no strictly on the lack of merit of this TA. I wouldn’t vote yes to solidify you, any other Frontier pilot, or myself to the conditions set forth in this TA.

I won’t bet my career on what if’s, fear, rationalizations, and unlikely theorys.