Frontier Negotiations Discussion
12-08-2018, 07:13 AM
#4111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 461
Originally Posted by SFA320
I was flying during the webinar. Was anything said about how often “they think” you would actually get re scheduled?
They're really not doing themselves any favors by projecting an average 90+ credit hours a month for F9 pilots and highlighting "effective" rates. That means NOTHING and the only thing the union has is an unproven theory. My point in bringing up pay is that the union is taking black and white language (rates) and applying a fantasy land factor to the language. With that said, this reassignment language is already weak and I don't think they addressed it at all.
12-08-2018, 07:19 AM
#4112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 124
Originally Posted by RustyChain
Except we are a crappy airline. We go to random cities at random times and constantly open and close routes as we get our asses kicked by any of the competition. The only way we sell tickets is because we're cheapest, and most of those people can only stomach one of you many operations f ups.
To think of it, maybe that's why we close routes, we run out of suckers that will fly us.
We aren't anything like the legacies. Problem is, some of you have been believing your own bull****. Now faced with this reality check, you would rather keep the fantasy alive and continue work under our present contract.
If we vote this down, we wont see TA2 in a few weeks. It will be months before WE are even ready to negotiate again. The money we will lose in the interim is significant, and may never have a break even under a second TA.
To think of it, maybe that's why we close routes, we run out of suckers that will fly us.
We aren't anything like the legacies. Problem is, some of you have been believing your own bull****. Now faced with this reality check, you would rather keep the fantasy alive and continue work under our present contract.
If we vote this down, we wont see TA2 in a few weeks. It will be months before WE are even ready to negotiate again. The money we will lose in the interim is significant, and may never have a break even under a second TA.
If our ticket prices are half of what tickets on United or Delta cost, then your salary should only be half of theirs???
12-08-2018, 07:25 AM
#4113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by RustyChain
Except we are a crappy airline. We go to random cities at random times and constantly open and close routes as we get our asses kicked by any of the competition. The only way we sell tickets is because we're cheapest, and most of those people can only stomach one of you many operations f ups.
To think of it, maybe that's why we close routes, we run out of suckers that will fly us.
We aren't anything like the legacies. Problem is, some of you have been believing your own bull****. Now faced with this reality check, you would rather keep the fantasy alive and continue work under our present contract.
If we vote this down, we wont see TA2 in a few weeks. It will be months before WE are even ready to negotiate again. The money we will lose in the interim is significant, and may never have a break even under a second TA.
To think of it, maybe that's why we close routes, we run out of suckers that will fly us.
We aren't anything like the legacies. Problem is, some of you have been believing your own bull****. Now faced with this reality check, you would rather keep the fantasy alive and continue work under our present contract.
If we vote this down, we wont see TA2 in a few weeks. It will be months before WE are even ready to negotiate again. The money we will lose in the interim is significant, and may never have a break even under a second TA.
Good try.
12-08-2018, 07:31 AM
#4114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 461
My opinion only...
These guys caved and sold us all out for an industry bottom dollar 12-year rate and a fat (looking) bonus check for themselves while giving up integrity. That's how it looks to me, so far. It's a little head-turning knowing the credit hours those guys bank, then all the fake posturing over the last 2.5 or so years, then the per diem email, then LTD email, more fake posturing, then the outrageous framework bullet point email, and now this TA where they're going to gut our ability to earn soft time and subject us to this reassignment language while on the road. I'm sure if you're a 300 hour a month guy you don't care that there's no limit on extending you without restriction for more money. I guess that'd save you a red-eye jumpseat to an out of base pickup later in the month.
These guys caved and sold us all out for an industry bottom dollar 12-year rate and a fat (looking) bonus check for themselves while giving up integrity. That's how it looks to me, so far. It's a little head-turning knowing the credit hours those guys bank, then all the fake posturing over the last 2.5 or so years, then the per diem email, then LTD email, more fake posturing, then the outrageous framework bullet point email, and now this TA where they're going to gut our ability to earn soft time and subject us to this reassignment language while on the road. I'm sure if you're a 300 hour a month guy you don't care that there's no limit on extending you without restriction for more money. I guess that'd save you a red-eye jumpseat to an out of base pickup later in the month.
12-08-2018, 07:33 AM
#4115
Sitting and scratching...
Joined APC: Sep 2012
Position: Upright
Posts: 371
Originally Posted by RustyChain
If we vote this down, we wont see TA2 in a few weeks. It will be months before WE are even ready to negotiate again. The money we will lose in the interim is significant, and may never have a break even under a second TA.
12-08-2018, 08:11 AM
#4116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Underpaid, LCC
Posts: 263
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
I agree with a lot of what you say and I do understand your argument. With that said, I am willing to take the gamble of voting this down. This TA fell short in so many areas and the duration is too long. We will never catch up if we cement our position at the bottom for so long.
It’s only partially about the money. PBS is a huge concession for me. With PBS my 7 days of vacation would be expandable to 9 versus being expandable to 22 as it can be in our current contract. That is a huge QOL concession for me. The rest of the contract does not make up for this concession. Some will argue that only senior people can effectively do that. Guess what? Everyone’s seniority is going up over the duration of this contract and our time remaining at Frontier. I don’t want to give up QOL for all of my remaining years.
I would rather send this back and find out what is behind door number TA2, than always wonder if we could have done better. Even if it takes a while or we end up disappointed in TA2, we will know that we tried to do the right thing. We would have our professional pilot self respect and dignity.
It’s only partially about the money. PBS is a huge concession for me. With PBS my 7 days of vacation would be expandable to 9 versus being expandable to 22 as it can be in our current contract. That is a huge QOL concession for me. The rest of the contract does not make up for this concession. Some will argue that only senior people can effectively do that. Guess what? Everyone’s seniority is going up over the duration of this contract and our time remaining at Frontier. I don’t want to give up QOL for all of my remaining years.
I would rather send this back and find out what is behind door number TA2, than always wonder if we could have done better. Even if it takes a while or we end up disappointed in TA2, we will know that we tried to do the right thing. We would have our professional pilot self respect and dignity.
12-08-2018, 08:19 AM
#4117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
I agree with a lot of what you say and I do understand your argument. With that said, I am willing to take the gamble of voting this down. This TA fell short in so many areas and the duration is too long. We will never catch up if we cement our position at the bottom for so long.
It’s only partially about the money. PBS is a huge concession for me. With PBS my 7 days of vacation would be expandable to 9 versus being expandable to 22 as it can be in our current contract. That is a huge QOL concession for me. The rest of the contract does not make up for this concession. Some will argue that only senior people can effectively do that. Guess what? Everyone’s seniority is going up over the duration of this contract and our time remaining at Frontier. I don’t want to give up QOL for all of my remaining years.
I would rather send this back and find out what is behind door number TA2, than always wonder if we could have done better. Even if it takes a while or we end up disappointed in TA2, we will know that we tried to do the right thing. We would have our professional pilot self respect and dignity.
It’s only partially about the money. PBS is a huge concession for me. With PBS my 7 days of vacation would be expandable to 9 versus being expandable to 22 as it can be in our current contract. That is a huge QOL concession for me. The rest of the contract does not make up for this concession. Some will argue that only senior people can effectively do that. Guess what? Everyone’s seniority is going up over the duration of this contract and our time remaining at Frontier. I don’t want to give up QOL for all of my remaining years.
I would rather send this back and find out what is behind door number TA2, than always wonder if we could have done better. Even if it takes a while or we end up disappointed in TA2, we will know that we tried to do the right thing. We would have our professional pilot self respect and dignity.
12-08-2018, 08:32 AM
#4118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 105
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
I agree with a lot of what you say and I do understand your argument. With that said, I am willing to take the gamble of voting this down. This TA fell short in so many areas and the duration is too long. We will never catch up if we cement our position at the bottom for so long.
It’s only partially about the money. PBS is a huge concession for me. With PBS my 7 days of vacation would be expandable to 9 versus being expandable to 22 as it can be in our current contract. That is a huge QOL concession for me. The rest of the contract does not make up for this concession. Some will argue that only senior people can effectively do that. Guess what? Everyone’s seniority is going up over the duration of this contract and our time remaining at Frontier. I don’t want to give up QOL for all of my remaining years.
I would rather send this back and find out what is behind door number TA2, than always wonder if we could have done better. Even if it takes a while or we end up disappointed in TA2, we will know that we tried to do the right thing. We would have our professional pilot self respect and dignity.
It’s only partially about the money. PBS is a huge concession for me. With PBS my 7 days of vacation would be expandable to 9 versus being expandable to 22 as it can be in our current contract. That is a huge QOL concession for me. The rest of the contract does not make up for this concession. Some will argue that only senior people can effectively do that. Guess what? Everyone’s seniority is going up over the duration of this contract and our time remaining at Frontier. I don’t want to give up QOL for all of my remaining years.
I would rather send this back and find out what is behind door number TA2, than always wonder if we could have done better. Even if it takes a while or we end up disappointed in TA2, we will know that we tried to do the right thing. We would have our professional pilot self respect and dignity.
12-08-2018, 09:09 AM
#4119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,666
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
I agree with a lot of what you say and I do understand your argument. With that said, I am willing to take the gamble of voting this down. This TA fell short in so many areas and the duration is too long. We will never catch up if we cement our position at the bottom for so long.
It’s only partially about the money. PBS is a huge concession for me. With PBS my 7 days of vacation would be expandable to 9 versus being expandable to 22 as it can be in our current contract. That is a huge QOL concession for me. The rest of the contract does not make up for this concession. Some will argue that only senior people can effectively do that. Guess what? Everyone’s seniority is going up over the duration of this contract and our time remaining at Frontier. I don’t want to give up QOL for all of my remaining years.
I would rather send this back and find out what is behind door number TA2, than always wonder if we could have done better. Even if it takes a while or we end up disappointed in TA2, we will know that we tried to do the right thing. We would have our professional pilot self respect and dignity.
It’s only partially about the money. PBS is a huge concession for me. With PBS my 7 days of vacation would be expandable to 9 versus being expandable to 22 as it can be in our current contract. That is a huge QOL concession for me. The rest of the contract does not make up for this concession. Some will argue that only senior people can effectively do that. Guess what? Everyone’s seniority is going up over the duration of this contract and our time remaining at Frontier. I don’t want to give up QOL for all of my remaining years.
I would rather send this back and find out what is behind door number TA2, than always wonder if we could have done better. Even if it takes a while or we end up disappointed in TA2, we will know that we tried to do the right thing. We would have our professional pilot self respect and dignity.
With PBS there is great potential get that same number of days off in a row, if you're looking for that. Again, it will depend on seniority much like it does now.
If this contract (with PBS) had been in place this year during my vacation month, I would have lost 8 hours of credit, but made up 5 of those hours with trip rig improvement, 5 hour ave duty period and 100% DH pay. So a net loss of 3 hours.
Considering the company could probably choose to have more pairings fly through domicile during the middle of a trip now than they do, the changes to vacation are probably pretty close to a wash.
If you think you're stuck with max 9 days off in a row with PBS regardless of seniority then it sounds like you don't know how PBS works.
12-08-2018, 09:10 AM
#4120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Posts: 109
I’d much rather work under the current book at the current rates than accept this TA.
Work rules can be VERY difficult to change. Primarily because they are hard to quantify monetarily.
We need to think long and hard before we consider accepting this TA.
Work rules can be VERY difficult to change. Primarily because they are hard to quantify monetarily.
We need to think long and hard before we consider accepting this TA.
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