Ohreallynow

I'm okay with voting in a substandard contract. I recognize I work for a substandard airline.

This concept exist in many labor sectors.

chinookwinds

Nothing personal against you ohreallynow, BUT, this is terrible way to approach this AIP. It seems very short sided and looking into the future, or recognizing the past sacrifices Frontier pilots have made.
Frontier Airlines is a Major airline, as is Spirit, Jet Blue, or Alaska. When I was hired in 2007, Frontier was a very difficult airline to get on with. The pilot hiring committee vary much scrutinized potential new hires to bring in only the very best applicants. It was a respectable and growing airline with a very dedicated customer base in Denver that loved this airline. Yes we had trouble making money, but needed to trim the fat as Indigo did. But not to the extreme levels they did to lose all respect of your employee group.
Turn the page to today. Yes, we are currently owned and managed by the the lowest of the lowest scum on the earth which has zero respect for any of their employees. But as an investment company they do a very great job doing what they do. That doesn’t mean we as professional pilots should except any thing less then what are peers receive, flying the very same aircraft in the very same environment as every other airline out their. Indigo will eventually go away. That day just can’t happen fast enough. But when they are gone we will be left with a substandard contract that we “were just ok voting for because we (at the time) are working for a substandard airline” Please don’t sell yourself, your fellow pilots and the industry as a whole short, WE ARE NOT SUBSTANDARD PILOTS!!

Aero1900

If I'm a spineless embarrassment, you must be one heck of a tough guy. So, what are you gonna do? Go knock down Biffles door and demand more? Carjack him when he leaves work like they would in a gangster movie? No, of course not. You're not going to do anything.

The only thing you can do is vote no. That's great, please do vote no. I have absolutely no problem with that. I don't want this TA to pass with flying colors, that would send the wrong message. But here's the reality: frontier isn't going to add much money to the pot. They don't have to and they won't. If we vote no, we are going to end up with TA2 that also deeply disappoints you. I promise you TA2 ain't going to be Deltas contact, not even close. Maybe we can get a few more bucks out of them, but I'm even skeptical of that. The only certainty is that by voting no, we will continue to loose out on money we deserve, falling farther behind. You sure that it makes financial sense to turn down a 50% pay raise for an unknown amount of time to get an unknown second offer?

If you've got a better tough guy plan, let's hear it. Maybe we could get together and watch some old gangster movies and make a plan. Or we could face reality like adults, realize that we are going to be paid slightly less than the big airlines and enjoy your raise and your life.

DimpledBalls

So, should I pencil you in as a “yes” voter? You are well within your right to defend this absolutely horrible AIP. I see that you have joined the JL and AB bandwagon. They sold you down the river and you are too naive to see it. I actually feel sorry for you. I bet you don’t feel the same about this contract 1 year from today. Go ahead, sell out the 2-11 year guys for your $45k radification bonus and then hang your head in shame for the next 7-8 years that you have to come in to work and fly for 30% than your peers. Extremely short sighted and cowardly.

ToddChavez

Ok, first off, there is NO indication Indigo is going away. In fact, every indication is they're here to stay.

Second, I share your sentiment, we are not substandard pilots. But the zero to hero story is fairy tale! If anyone thought we were actually going to get our "ask" you were crazy. Asks are the high end in negotiations, not the hard-line.

ToddChavez

No, I'm a waiting to see the whole thing voter. I'm a 5 year guy, BTW.

chinookwinds

The more I read the posts here on APC, the more obvious and clear that it is that Indigo and this current management group won the negotiation battle. They have managed to pit this pilot group against each other and destroy unity. Pretty sad that friendships were lost throughout the process, although that could be just the emotional factor that has played into this. I think they completely outplayed ALPA and their game plan and in fact I have lost some respect for this union and their inability to adjust the game plan at halftime to achieve what we set out to do. When I read some of the disrespectful, arrogant and cocky ass responses on this forum, I picture a bunch of grown adults in a room yelling and screaming at each other.
It would be great to see this group act as the professionals we are and have respectable, productive discussions to handle the problems that may or may not lie ahead of us with this AIP.

fcoolaiddrinker

Yup. Because negotiations for our next contract will start the day the first legitimate dispute is filled. Not 5 years from now like pilots like to believe.

chinookwinds

We can only hope this is the beginning of the end and that they will finally cash out. I think they will...2-3 years but they will. That is why this agreement is so back loaded..
As to the second part of your response. I think this is failure 1 by ALPA. Thinking that we could have, (what was just a industry average ask nearly 3 years ago) asked for industry average in hopes of quickly reaching an agreement back fired. Indigo played this very well. They delayed as long as they wanted to, made millions of our backs in the mean time and decided to get an agreement done on their terms. And of course under Bad Faith bargaining, by demanding PBS in the 11th hour although that section had been TA’ed long ago.
Thanks for a professional discussion

Aero1900

Clearly Frontier outplayed us. I pointed that out a while ago.

They have backed us into a corner.

We vote it down, which we wont, itll only be by a small margin. Remember, spirit voted theirs in by over 70%. I believe we will vote ours in by well over 60%. Let's say I'm wrong and we vote it down, how much will it be by? 52% no?

Let's assume that happens. We vote it down by 52/48. What does that tell the company? They only need to add a few pennies to get to a yes vote.

So.... let's delay our 50% raise by an unknown amount of time to add a few pennies. The only way we get a significantly better TA2 is with a resounding no vote. And I really don't see that happening. Do you?