The bottom line is that first year pilots at Frontier aren’t dues paying union pilots and the union won’t spend negotiating capital on pilots they don’t yet represent. Also, high first year pay could help the company recruit by masking any pitfalls in pay or benefits in years 2-12. With no problems recruiting pilots, contract improvements would be unnecessary on the company’s part. The union would love to see industry leading first year pay BUT only after it’s dues paying members are taken care of first. It’s pretty simple.

 

The company will just come up with a sign on bonus if that’s the case but the union did sell out part of the pilot group and that’s something to not forget.

 

So it's a dues issue? 2% of first year pay is roughly $700.

 

LOL, you're clueless. 1: I'm only on second year pay. 2: I would have happily (and already did) suffer through crappy first year pay if it meant I'd bump up to a more appropriate A320 wage in year 2. 3: its not selling out junior guys, its selling out first year guys only because the company wants to sell out everybody.

All of us have already paid 1st year dues at some point. It sucks that they exist. Lets be real and think about this logically though for a second. What sane person, who wants to come to this airline for a long period of time...ok ok you got me, that person must not be sane, but for the sake of the "argument." If somebody wants to come here for a long period of time do you think they'd rather $70 first year with 85 second 100 third, 108 fourth and 115 fifth. Or would they like $40, 105, 130, 139, 146? Smart people would rather only make $30 less the first year...not all of them.

Reducing first year pay is significant in terms of cost savings for the company on the contract and shows our willingness to move toward a middle. The company doesn't want to do it that way though because they feel it will hurt recruiting pilots, it certainly will if they are looking to make this place a revolving door, but not for anybody actually wanting to stay.

Yep, and the union is happy to allow them to do so, they just don't want to compromise pay for the rest of us so that the company can "afford" it.

 

The dollar amount makes no matter, probationary pilots aren’t union members and union members pay dues. Probationary pilots don’t get every benefit that their dues-paying counterparts do. Otherwise it would be the same as getting all the same insurance benefits while not paying the premium. I’d be HAPPY to see the company pay for it, but I won’t subsidize it.

 

You are pathetic saying it’s ok to sell out 1st FOs. It doesn’t matter that we all suffered through it or that they don’t pay union dues. They are part of our pilot group and shouldn’t have to live on poverty to come join our ranks, I will gladly give up some pay to make sure EVRYONE is taken care of.

The same logic you are applying is the same logic Frankie probably uses to justify paying us the lowest AB wages.

 

Classic example of closing the door on your way up.

This next contract is going to be a top end money grab.

 

Either your pilot group stands by livable and respectable year 1 pay or it doesn't. Plenty of pilot groups have taken care of their year 1 probationary pilots. You've no excuse to dismiss them other than selling out your peers for perceived gain. You aren't gaining anything. The company is counting on the fact you'll dream up absolute bullsh*t reasons for contract shortcomings. Guess you'll be giving them plenty.

 

Its crazy to me...I come on here and I wonder if the majority of the people posting are just people within management pushing to hurt our future contract. Either that or you agree with the union but don't want it publicly displayed because you feel that the opinion on this matter will hurt negotiations.

Also 40 is hardly poverty, respectable or appropriate for the skill and training, absolutely not. But it is ignorant to call it poverty.

 

I highly doubt I share Franke’s logic for pilot pay, and you weren’t able to provide any argument to back that assumption.

It is completely speculative at this point, since we don’t have the union’s amended hourly rate proposal, how much of a haircut our first year FOs took from the original pay proposal. My understanding was that all first year FOs (on property) would be treated to higher rates than the first years FOs to follow (who have yet to be hired). But those terms could have changed, as they often do in a negotiation.

We’re being told we have to take less than we originally asked for on Date of Signing, which in itself is complete B.S. That is a directly the result of the NMB determining actual rates (plus QOL and benefits) versus providing mediation ‘to avoid disruption of interstate commerce and help provide a prompt resolution to contract disputes and negotiations.’

If WE (on property) are taking less than originally proposed, you can bet that those who have yet to be hired have less right to keep a piece of the total value of the next contract. Anything could happen. What if hiring stops tomorrow and doesn’t start again until after the amendable date of the next contract? Are you happy you spent that negotiating capital on pilots that never stepped foot on property?

As someone has already suggested, if the company is unable to recruit pilots because every other airline treats their first year pilots better, then they’ll either have to open the contract or provide a hiring bonus (just like the regionals this management group aspires to mimic).

I’ve never believed in “paying your dues” your first year (i.e. take it in the butt just because you’re the FNG). First year pay stinks purely because you have no bargaining position as someone trying to get hired at an airline, nor do you during your first year as a non-dues paying probationary pilot. First year pay is COMPLETELY dictated by what kind of company you work for, it is not a reflection of the pilot union. F9 has a scumbag management group that would pay our first year FOs with food stamps if they thought qualified pilots would still show up for the job.