You about to start class?

You that sure you won't stay?

But first pay taxes on the income, then take your 4% on 25k and then have to pay back 35k in after tax money. You’ll be rich!!!!!!!!!

Probably a good idea to consult a tax professional before accepting. Quick google search says if you pay it back in a different tax year you can get a credit for the federal tax paid but you eat the SS/Medicare portion.

Well Aero, he was referring to the "WHY" are people leaving question in a previous post, went Socratic with it and offered facts backed up by empirical data. WHY do you try to deflate anyone who says things about Frontier Airlines that are unflattering but true on this forum? We've been through this. This company needs to change and this forum is on of the best vehicles we have to raise issues between ourselves and directly to management. A "Once in a career hiring environment" is not the reason 8 year captains are leaving. This 35K bonus is just another band aid on an airline that does not seem to have a grip on reality. Through the systemic incompetence of the entire operation Frontier creates a work environment (while on the ground for the most part) that the majority of pilots I fly with do not like and treat our customers in a manner that we are ashamed of. We fly for an airline that scams it's customers for profit; who wants to be a part of that? Many other airlines offer an opportunity to fly for a company where they can take pride in the service provided their customers - which is a huge thing - as well as better pay and a more professional work environment, period. They are going to have to compete with other airlines in this arena and they just haven't gotten that fact through their heads. We are lucky to have a fantastic pilot group here which means a lot to me and If we don't have a serious accident seniority will accrue rapidly, we hope. After those two things though, what? The operational challenges we face every single day are just getting old. A million little things that add up and make it feel like we are hacking our way through dense jungle to do our jobs instead of walking down a cleared path. If they want pilots to stay they are going to have to pay them, and pay them well. Take the pay bumps at the regionals for reference - eventually there will be no other choice but to pay pilots to stay. This "training pipeline" they are talking about is a joke. It is just another bad idea in the long line of bad ideas management seems to gestate regularly. El Gipple presented that data to assert that something is broken, and it needs to be fixed. I want things to change at Frontier, you're trying to squelch those that voice their desire for that. WHY?

Sign on/retention bonus
 

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Filler

What about offering $ for those who have been here a while an incentive to STAY!

Thats exactly what I’m saying. I’m not even here yet. And I wouldn’t be angry in the slightest if only you guys currently on property got it. Still confused why it’s suddenly being offered, and why my Nov 28 class seems to be where they drew the line. What about Oct 24 guys? I was almost in that class but had some things to attend to.

I only had a few minutes to read over it last night, fell asleep instantly. I’m confused as to why we only have a day or two to consider. It came with the announcement of the bonus, and page 2 was just like the offer letter I signed after my CJO (welcome, your class will be the 28th, sign here blah blah accepting the offer). Form 2 is a Promissory note; offer letter says in plain language that 3 years is required, or else pay back in full (no prorating), the Promissory note has legalese but seems to say the same. Form 3 is bank info for a deposit I guess.

I know other industries have signing bonuses and they claw back if you leave. But this is new territory for me, with no time to consider. The way the email and offer letter sound, it comes across as “you must sign this new offer letter to say you’re coming to class.” Im not trying to leave, so I don’t necessarily see a disadvantage, but I share your uneasiness/skepticism since it feels rushed.

It won’t happen but it would be amazing if very few to no one takes it.

It’s hard to even get mad. This won’t work. Not even a little bit.

We had an two year employment contract here a few years back. I don't believe anyone who left before the two years had to pay a dime of it back. I have never seen one of these contracts enforced, has anyone else? Go on take the money and run... WOO WHO WHO!

Right? I mean, I’m not sold on it. I get a whole 1 day to consider, which just feels like pushy car sales. Maybe it’s unfounded but the unsettling feeling is real. Plus, middle finger to the guys who started 2 weeks ago. A month ago etc, plus anyone who has actually been here for a while.

Basically. This is a training contract with a different name?

This is what I’ve read over the years. I’ve seen a minority of accounts that actually had an operator, usually a scummy small 135, go after them. However the Promissory Note is 4 pages of “if you leave prior to 3 years, eff you pay me. Payment expected within 5 days of termination or early resignation.” No mention in the offer or other docs when they would pay *us*. Is it 1 lump, immediately? After checkride? IOE? Some now some in a year?

Looks like aero crew news posted this today. The comments are what we al expect.

Personally I wouldn’t sign that. Your going to make low six figures without a document hanging over your head for three years.

AA regionals definitely want it back. Friend left there immediately got a legal letter requesting it back within a certain amount of days or else it accrues interest at 6% plus legal fees.

I don’t see anything in the note about interest or percentages. It says if you leave on or after 3 year mark, paid in full. Leave for any reason prior, full repayment. Expected in 5 days or else considered a loan in default.

The only way I wouldn't take that free pile of cash is if I was absolutely certain I wasn't going to stay.

If I was just using Frontier for type and was going to try for United immediately, then yes, I wouldn't take it.

But if you think that maybe you'd like to stay here, you'd really kick yourself for leaving 35k behind.

And yes, you will have to repay it if you bail. Don't be stupid. Frontier isn't just going to let you keep if it ig you don't hold up your end of the bargain.

This has been going on at the regionals for over a decade. Not sure why this is all a new, complicated mystery for everyone??

And again I'll point out: 35k is what I made at Frontier my first year. New hires are hitting the damn jackpot now. 35k bonus, $90/ hour, paid hotels, and the fastest growing airline in the country.

You're going to hate this answer.

If you hate the way the place is run that much, you should go work somewhere else.

This is a ULCC now. Been that way for about 10 years now. It is what it is. It's a ULCC man....
Management teams come and go. I think Biffle and the Boys are team number 7. I'm going to be here long after they are gone. We might stay a sh*tty ULCC for another 30 years, we may not. We might merge, we might totally change. Who knows.

I don't run the airline. I don't make customer service decisions. I fly the plane, get paid and go home to my family. I try to make the most positive impact possible at work. I take care of my crew and passengers the best I can but that's it. I don't run the airline.

I would like to refer you to my answer to you earlier in the Nov 28th class thread

Thanks for the data. Very appreciated here

Remember the summer of 2020? BB confidently saying “we will get through this together” on video after video and saying we are well positioned to weather the storm, unlike the legacies? And then, overnight, they changed their tune in the fall and planned the furlough of hundreds of our pilots? 504 pilots to be exact were subject to zero credit lines or unpaid leave only to be offset by senior pilots taking 35 hour COLAs. That happened in an instant. Would the company make you pay back the 35k if they furloughed you? I am guessing they would because they are fronting you the money. Are they committing to not furlough you for 3 years? Are they committing to keep your base open for 3 years? Are they committing to not terminate for using sick leave for the first three years?

This is a scheme and no one in their right mind would sign it. I flew with many pilots in 2019 and 2020 that had plans to stay here forever, even relocate their family to one of our growing bases. They are gone. 3 years is a long time.

Good points. There’s a way to fix our attrition problem and this isn’t it. Hint. Strong arm tactics won’t work in the current environment.

Previously I mentioned you could put it in savings, but then I thought about how difficult it is to get anything done administratively at this place and how much of a hassle it would be to return the funds if a pilot does choose to leave. There would be tax implications as well.

Ridiculous.

If you think you are going to stay here, you'd be crazy to not take the money.

Easy to say when you aren’t on the hook. 3 years is an eternity in this industry and F9 is known for its predatory business tactics.

I agree. Only thing is the industry changes fast and therefore so do mindsets. I have seen countless people talk about how they love their schedule over at say a place like Spirit and how great the airline is….then you find out 6 months later they went to Delta. It’s amazing how much that QOL ends up not meaning enough.

We’ve been looking over it all morning. It *does* explicitly state that if I leave before the term, or am terminated for cause, full repayment is due (in 5 days, or else default and they’ll come after you plus all legal fees). Doesn’t say anything about leave or furlough. Just quitting or fired for for cause. So at least there’s that.

Right. I thing my uneasiness mostly stems from the car sales pressure. Plus, stiffing over anyone who has been here for 2 weeks or more.

My reading of the ACH authorization says that I would authorize them to pay into ABC bank at XXX account/routing number. It also seems to say at the bottom they are authorized to yoink it back out of said bank account. Quote:So in terms of hassle, probably no hassle for them. All hassle for you.

Brocklee don’t worry about the guys before you. Do whatever you think is best for you and your family. Sometimes that’s just how things go in this industry.

Actually your answer is spot on. It is a choice and I've analyzed every side I can think of while displaying all the facial expressions of a monkey handed his first Rubic's Cube. I've run numbers and thought about how it will affect my family vs. where I am in my career etc etc.. Recession looming.. I'd take a massive hit if I left and that means I'm most likely going to be here for the long haul. Happy to make your day. Anyhow man, you just totally dismissed all of El Gipple's points and data by saying "hiring environment" which was lazy at best and completely off point. He brings up good points in his impressively formatted post which is clearly finely tuned to push issues. Don't you feel they are worth a think? Your either on board with helping change the course of this place and bringing about a better contract through communications like this or you're not. Which is it? The car is stalled and you're pushing on the wrong end. The idea that you cringe at any negativity directed at Frontier is ridiculous.
Yes! It is a ULCC, I think it's a great model and I can get behind the idea we are providing a discount service for those who choose to utilize it. What has changed here is that we have crossed the line into being a sand trap for peoples money. The "new" model they have come up with is to scam our passengers in order to make more money through their coveted "ancillary revenue streams". Hanging onto to 220 odd million of customers money and being THE ONLY US AIRLINE TO BE FINED for doing so is the latest badge of pride we all get to wear.
So pilots are leaving. 4 out of 5 FO's I fly with have their apps out. Their beefs are those listed on this forum, but pay is only one of a constellation of issues we all have with this airline. Another funny thing is we get these videos in Docunet with overseas accents talking about "building the brand" and then they go out and drag it through the dirt! It's all a bit schizophrenic.

For sure. I missed out on the first year raises too but I was pretty excited to see them because that meant more people under me and more furlough protection. It is going to seem extra pushy simply because of your timing on a class date. It’s wrong of them to be that way but it’s their money and they can do what they want. Likewise so can you.

I forsee anybody who isn’t one of the big 5 following closely and initiating their own bonus programs

“ Retention Bonus” or just a deceptively named Training Contract?

Frontier couldn’t increase New Hire pay any more to attract Pilots because of the Contract. So instead of raising pay by $35K they have come up with this “Bonus”. A “Bonus” they can get back.

So, my question is, can you be hired and attend training without signing up for the “bonus”, not just this upcoming class but for all future classes? Is it going to be mandatory to accept this to be hired at Frontier, either explicitly or inexplicably, meaning, if you don’t want the “bonus” then you’ll never be hired? If not then it’s just another name for a Training Contract, a very expensive Training Contract. Aren’t most Training Contracts about 10K? Very bad form to spring it on the next few classes, especially if folks have already quit their other jobs and then have this thrust upon them. This should have been made very clear during the application and interviewing process. This might have looked good at first glance to the Company but I feel this will actually hurt hiring. I wouldn’t sign a 35K Training Contract, not when I could go elsewhere so easily in today’s hiring environment. I truly believe that this will reduce the pool of possible candidates looking at Frontier.

If the Company truly wanted a Retention Bonus system to keep Folks around vs a Training Contract, they should do as some other Airlines have done. A small bonus for showing up to class, a small bonus for finishing IOE, then a bigger one after a certain time period, say three years. Heck you could really lock some folks in with offering another Bonus after Upgrade. Mentally much harder to leave somewhere once you have upgraded. Now personally I’m against bonuses. I think bonuses outside the Contract is shady by the Company. It’s a way of getting around the Contract same as offering hotel rooms to New Hires. I’m not against the Hotel rooms, but doing it outside of the Contract weakens the Union’s “power”. The Company gets to offer something at it’s whim, to it’s advantage and possibly not fairly. Anything outside of a written Contract can be and is typically abused eventually.

Let’s call this what it is, an “Expensive, Non-Prorated Training Contract”.

I’ll second this. Pretty sure anyone currently on property won’t have an issue with someone accepting 25k. Thanks for the updates on the language.

I’m not so sure about this? The intent of that sentence is to tie the terms of a bonus to other non-management employees. 35k does put first year pay over 98.5% of second. We’ll see what happens?

You would think; but look at all of the regional FO’s and CA’s, many with legacy CJO’s who could only see the short term. Although, their’s isn’t a one-time bonus.

I mostly agree with all of this except that training contracts of the past didn't pay out cash!

My old airline had a real training contract. It worked like this:

1) You sign a training contract.
2) Go to class and don't get paid a penny until you pass your checkride!
3) If you leave you owe them $7500.

This is not that. This is just the same as all the regionals have been doing for a decade now. The only lame thing about it is its not prorated. That's the real b*tch of it

If I'm correctly understanding what's written here, I think it's incorrect. Per LOA 4, first year FO pay can be increased up to 98.5% of of second year FO pay. IMO, this is latitude that never should've been given to the company. We've allowed them to adapt to rapidly changing market conditions without having to come to the table to do so.

The pay out also isn’t prorated. The recipient gets it all at once, I think before training begins.

You have to put $10-$11K aside for taxes. I like the idea of a CD, but if you did bail early you have to come up with 35G’s of your own money to pay it back. Just put it in your sock drawer until 11-28-2025 then you are free and clear.

Right. Except that they can do the signing bonus anyhow. It's actually kind of surprising they didn't start with the signing bonus before going the route of the 1st year pay raise

I agree, real old fashioned Training Contracts didn’t pay out cash. This is a way to get around the Contract for another increase in First Year Pay, the rhetoric of being fair to the all the “Cadet” groups is just a distraction. Frontier does what is best for them as a Company, they are not in the business of making people feel warm and fuzzy. If they were then things would be much different working here day by day. This might also be the new sneaky Training Contract of the Industry, let me explain my thoughts,

Everything depends upon whether or not you can realistically get hired without accepting the Bonus. If you can not, then this becomes a de facto Training Contract or a Employment Duration Contract or whatever name you want to give it. If in the future you can get hired without accepting the bonus then I’m totally off base and then this is just a Contract skirting Bonus with really bad repayment terms. Maybe that’s what it is, but I have my doubts.

The question is will Frontier in the future readily accept folks from both groups, those willing to accept the Bonus with it’s conditions and those that decline to accept the Bonus. If it gets to be known that you don’t stand a chance of getting a class date unless you accept the Bonus then it’s a condition of getting the job and in my mind serves the same purpose as a Training Contract which was to get people not to leave or if they did leave they paid for their training costs.
As I said before, a true Retention Bonus wouldn’t have any contract associated with it, it would be simply if you’re here on certain events or dates after you get hired then you get a bonus. No signing of paperwork before you showed up to class. No allowing Frontier access to your Bank Account so they can take money out later, no 5 days to repay or else Interest and Legal fees added. All those things are conditions typically associated with Training Contracts.

My belief that all is this is a sneaky workaround of the Contractual restriction to any further First Year pay increases coupled with a Training Contract. Again, I’ll be willing to admit I’m totally wrong IF they allow Folks the freedom to just not accept the Bonus and IF not accepting the Bonus doesn’t hurt your chances of being assigned a Training Class but who are we kidding, in the eyes of the Company/Hiring Department if you are not willing to enthusiastically jump on accepting the Bonus with it’s conditions then maybe you aren’t “Frontier Material” and maybe we don’t want you here. IF you have to be willing to accept the Bonus to stand a chance of getting a Class date then the Bonus becomes a De facto Training Contract.

Just got off the phone with some people. Sounds like it will come as a lump, unsure if they will withhold any taxes but my guess is $35K. No idea when the tax bill will be due, probably in a few months when I start my taxes.

i had the same thought. Put some into an i-bond, open a HYSA like Ally, etc. But it’ll just be simpler to set it in my savings account and just not touch it.

This is interesting, you're right it could be their way of weeding people out who are just there to "check the box" before moving on.

Interesting points brought up here.

I guess we need to know if you can opt in or out of the bonus and the 3 year agreement.

The 35k is likely F9’s attempt to compete with the regionals for applicants. Apparently, the vast majority of recent new hires do not have the level of experience to be legacy eligible. Upon gaining an Airbus type and 1500 hrs of 121 time, they will move on regardless of having to pay back the money.