Why is the union so quiet on it ?

What about these $500/month stipends these “cadets” will be getting? I’m no contract expert, but I’m surprised nobody has questioned this yet. I also THOUGHT it was agreed that hotels for new hires was a contract violation and yet that has continued. Kinda looks like the company just does whatever they want whether it’s contract compliant or not…..and the consequences for doing so seem to be nonexistent.

Can’t cash an I bond for 12 months. You could really back yourself into a corner doing that

What do you want them to say? They have no recourse.

Here's a different view on this whole thing:

Clearly, the company is willing to pay pilots to grow this airline.

In just the last 12 months the company has increased first year pay twice, started paying for hotels and now offering a 35k signing bonus.

They want to grow the airline and they clearly aren't going to let increasing pilot costs stop them.

I hope they come to us soon with AK +10% because watching all first year FOs leave is making me cringe

It's not just pay that is the problem. Until they solve a myriad of issues that impact the pilot group here at Frontier they will continue to lose pilots.

Willing to pay people to come. Not doing anything for the existing pilots to stay.

The CBA only covers pilots employed by Frontier. If they are given money prior to being an employee, it's not covered by the CBA. Once they become pilot employees then the CBA kicks in...hence the fight over new hire hotels. The consequences for violating the contract are not non-existent, we're bound by the RLA on how to resolve minor disputes. However strongly we may feel about an issue, these kinds of things are all deemed to be minor disputes and the arbitration process has to be followed and that can be lengthy. Often, the union has to decide which is the highest priority issue because we only get so many arbitrations a year.

Frontier could definitely first year pay more. They're allowed to go to 98.5% of second year pay which is around $115 right now. So they could go to $113.

Part of "taking care of your crew" should include taking care of your fellow airmen. This includes pushing hard to fix significant issues and pushing hard for improved working conditions, work rules, pay and benefits. Both during contract negotiations and outside of official negotiations. Hiding those significant issues and deficiencies, sweeping them under the rug, hiding them in a closet, and/or minimizing them publicly in the way you continually do is the opposite of "taking care of your crew (fellow airmen)".

It's clear by your many responses that your first and nearly only priority is to continue the growth of the airline, even if it means accepting the current conditions for longer, or even forever (relatively speaking), if that's what it takes to keep people coming to F9, even if they come under false pretenses (because you continually minimize and redirect legitimate concerns).

Anyhow, we've had this conversation before, and you learn nothing from it, but judging by the reactions from many of your coworkers, I'm not the only one who clearly sees it.

I'm glad you are not in my seniority list, because I would clearly consider you an enemy of the group when it comes to pushing for a better contract, and better contract compliance. But don't worry, we have some of "you" anyway.

As one of your other coworkers pointed out, clearly F9 is willing to invest THE ABSOLUTEL MINIMUM it can, on only NEW pilots. Nothing at all for the other 90% who have legitimate reasons to expect better, and be treated better. Nothing for them, and you are continually just fine with that.

I'm 100% sure I put you on the ignore list, WTF? APC is broken.

Wow, surprise surprise. Another self righteous post from Bluedriver.

Good grief man, there are management issues and pilot group issues. Most everybody here complains about management issues. We can kick and scream all we want about their decisions, but in the end the pilot group can do very little to change their company decisions. It might be a surprise to you but at Frontier we are pilots too, and guess what, like other pilots we want the things WE can control to improve. As in a better contract and all the things you listed. Remember our picket events from the last negotiation round, huge turnouts for our size. Guess what, Aero was there. So let’s dial back self righteous and pretentious insults, you have no idea what goes on at Frontier. Reading mostly BS on apc and forming an opinion does very little. We will get a better contract this next go around, I might dare say it just might be better than yours.

How's the merger going? I saw it got $600 million more expensive for Jetblue this morning.

As I understand it, the 600m is a refinance of debt that was coming due.

“The debt is intended to pay down $155 million of debt and have more cash on hand with an uncertain 2023. According to Airline Weekly, this is after Spirit Airlines took out $850 million in loyalty program-secured debt in September 2020.”

https://simpleflying.com/spirit-airlines-raise-600-million-new-debt/

Maybe they are about to get a big raise and raise the industry to a new standard. Maybe not.

Some of you girls are so sensitive.

I didn't SAY F9 was an F-show. I said (paraphrasing) that YOUR OWN guys are bringing up concerns, and Aero continually dismisses them. Which YOUR GUY said just as much within the last few pages, yet you didn't correct him.

In the end, just as before, your opinion of me matters zero. And your opinion of me in this case is based on a misreading of my post and intentions. I was in NO WAY making a personal disparaging characterization of your airline. I only referenced the legitimate concerns or YOUR OWN PILOT GROUP.

Your misreading and mischaracterization of my post says everything about you and your insecurities and nothing about me.

I hope you can get an amazing contract. Whether it's better than ours likely depends on whether you are taking about our 4 year old CBA or our future new CBA...

Sounds like the country's largest ULCC isn't doing very well to me. Coming out of COVID, the higher service airlines have had the highest margins. Looks like they are trying to survive until their business model changes.

Also, says the 600m is a line of credit. They may or may not draw all of it.

Your argument would be stronger except….”What Spirit Airlines is doing has precedent. Airlines in the United States, such as American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, and United Airlines, all used their loyalty programs as collateral for loans to persevere during the worst of the COVID-19 pandemic downturn.”

Welcome back, Blue. Missed ya Bud.

Here's a question for all of you guys constantly attacking me: What the heck do you think I should be doing exactly? You want me to be "pushing hard to fix significant issues and pushing hard for improved working conditions, work rules, pay and benefits"

Ok. Tell me how exactly I'm supposed to do that? I'm not in management. I'm just a regular ol' line pilot. Show me where to push and I'll push! For God sake, we aren't even in contract negotiations! On my next flight should I get on the PA at the gate counter and tell the passengers that they shouldn't board the airplane until we get 'own occupation' LTD until age 65? Or should I tell the passengers on my welcome aboard PA that the company brought in 44 of our pilots to ask them about their sick time use and they should immediately get off the plane and buy a ticket on Delta instead? Should I go to my kids elementary school and organize a letter writing campaign to Biffle telling him to give me a raise?

What about reality? Anyone up for a dose of reality? Or are we all cool with bullsh*tting keyboard warriors pretending that they are really "fighting" for improvements when in reality all they are doing is b*tching on the forums at their fellow pilots?

We work under a negotiated labor contract, right? We agreed to it! (by 70%) We have to live with it until we can negotiate another one. And when that happens we will each have our chance to vote yes or no. In the meantime, I will do what you all want to try to get this place to run out of applicants. But beyond that, I'm just going to enjoy my job and be good to my fellow crew members. During our last contract negotiations, I attend both of our picketing events. I wore the ugly orange lanyard.I attended the union sales pitch and asked questions. I bought pizza for my entire crew last time I was on a trip. But I'm the enemy according to BlueDriver. nice.

Here ya go Keyboard warriors who think I'm not fighting the good fight:

ATTENTION ALL PROSPECTIVE APPLICANTS TO FRONTIER:
DO NOT COME HERE! GO TO DELTA UNIT FRONTIER GETS A BETTER CONTRACT!!!

We don't start negotiating for a year and won't have a deal for another 3 years after that, but I'm really fighting here guys! I bet Franke and Biffle are going to show up at my door tomorrow with a pile of cash now! I really learned from the wisdom of BlueDriver. So glad he stopped by to educate me. So glad I can completely circumvent our CBA and the RLA process to score big for the pilot group. And all I had to do was a little keyboard warrior action! Its good to not be the 'enemy' anymore... I'll sleep better tonight

Yeah, no sh*t.

What did you expect? We are working under a CBA we agreed to. Its the companies job to staff the airline, grow and make money. They are doing exactly that.

They want you to tell everybody how bad your company is so they don’t come.

They want to to encourage your coworkers (FOs/Capts) to leave (so they can move up/have leverage).

And they don’t want you to go one inch beyond what is necessary to do your job. All the while complaining how no one else meets the standard.

Good luck.

All but one of them:
http://mediaroom.jetblue.com/investor-relations.aspx

Bluedriver is right. Instead of getting defensive, try and learn a little from what he says. He may not be who you think. What’s more, F9 doesn’t have the luxury of 5 years to re visit the CBA unless they want to stop growth completely. The pilot shortage will not allow it.

I agree with this... People saying its gonna take 3 years to get a contract, that is 3 years too long for Frontier to survive in a market where pilots can go anywhere. I would expect to see a CBA finalized by mid 2025 most likely.

There is a difference in being a realist and a Pollyanna. Whether frontier pilots are in negotiations or not IMO isn’t relevant. This management has shown time and time again how they view labor, and it’s important for prospective pilots to understand who they will be working for and the issues that need rectified. Does that come across as being overly negative at times? Of course it can. But in my case, this is the result of managements actions, and they get what they give. They have the ability to change for the better. And they don’t get the benefit of the doubt. They get credit for making money, but look around the industry right now.

Well said...

Check this out !

piedmont offering $100K upfront bonus - Jeez

https://airwaysmag.com/piedmont-airl...t-pilot-bonus/

I only have one question to our union since I know our negotiations will last 8 years.. ;

Can we not go back to orange lanyards please ? Blue looks better on me. Or green. None of this orange crap. And not a cheapo one again this time thanks !

OMG not TOOLIE BLUELIE again!

And how would the F9 margin look after it gives back the 200m they stole from their customers?

Um yeah, not reading all that gibberish. But I will say, not being in negotiations right now is no excuse. You still need CBA enforcement and there is nothing preventing the company from entering early CBA negotiations or a pay LOA, if they didn't have boot lickers sweeping the hard reality under the rug with "happy talk".

Frankly you have zero clue what our pilot group is like if you think what is said on APC comes from even a remotely representative sample size. You have no clue what our union is or isn't doing to enforce the current CBA. And broadening out the audience beyond blueboy here.. for what it's worth, spouting off on APC is probably the LEAST effective way of making change at any airline. You want change? Talk to your reps. Volunteer for a committee. File disputes for contract violations. Be part of the solution.

Look man I don't want to further this Blue Man Group circle jerk any farther than it's gone but I know a lot of people at this airline and they are ALL ****ed, ashamed, and embarrassed by the steaming piles of BS that just continue to pile up here no matter where it comes from. We need to let it be known to whomever peruses this rose garden what is actually going on around here and not pretend these issues do not exist or deride people who bring them up.

I wasn't talking to your group, I was talking to one pilot. I wasn't making a judgement about your group, I was making a judgement about one member of your group.

Aside from that, this is a primary place for getting a sense of each airlines pilot groups temperature and nearly the only place to get a sense of each airlines pilot group's personal feelings/struggles/satisfaction with their company, from outside. To suggest that what we read here is BS, and everything at F9 is amazing is beyond credibility. I see what gets posted here with respect to my own company, and I know good and well how much is true, untrue, and exaggerated for dramatic affect. While these forums can be more negative than reality, nearly 100% of the time if many dudes are complaining about the same issues, they ARE real issues.

Beyond that I could not possibly care any less what you think of me or my posts here. I'll leave when I'm good and ready.

You were getting on Aero's case based on what other F9 pilot are saying here on APC, so you were trying to tell him what our pilot group thinks based on APC posts. He works here, you don't. So yes, you're making a judgment about our pilot group based on what you read here on APC. You have no clue. You have a much better clue about what's going on at Blue, obviously. I don't for one minute think I have a clue of what's going on at Blue based on what I read on here. Don't even think about extrapolating what I said to suggest that everything at F9 is actually amazing. I didn't even hint at that. Leave, stick around, your choice...it's a public forum. You repeatedly say you don't care what anyone thinks of you which makes me think you probably do care and is why you respond the way you do.

You’ve made many posts on here that were clearly at a minimum not well received. I agreed with many comments about your posts but remained pretty much silent.. However, that was a great post. Everyone needs to read it again and understand what he is really saying. If you don’t understand or take action on that concept, you will never get what you deserve or near the improvements you could have.

Glad we got that straight.

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