Well I did and that’s why I am asking. Reading the CBA or the RLA does nothing to tell me where we are at in our grievance process for which violation. If we have a limited number of arbitrations than which grievances are up for arbitration first? Do we chose by date, number of violations, or by pain caused by the violation? As I understand one of the grievances has already made it to arbitration around sept. that covers around 500 grievances. Well? Did we win?

Normally after the actual arbitration hearing the arbitrator takes all the evidence/testimony and spends several weeks to make a ruling. A decision is almost never made that day. After his/her ruling there’s now some back and forth on a remedy based on the ruling. I’m guessing a ruling and/or remedy has not been made on that particular arbitration yet. If the company ignores the arbitrator’s ruling that’s when a lawsuit can be filed.

We’re going to be looking to streamline the process in our next agreement. That was done to some extent in this agreement. Apparently not enough.

I’m for it

Are you using a VPN? I thought the same thing until I realized it was my VPN that was somehow flagging my posts.

I sure hope so. Having the company just ghost us on serious contract violations time and time again is absolutely unacceptable.

A great place to start would be to ask the grievance committee or your local reps those kinds of questions. The MEC decides which grievances to put forward to arbitration first. What criteria they use is something only they can answer.

“Pilots of Frontier Airlines, Inc. shall participate in any Discretionary Bonus Program on the same terms and conditions of other non-management employees.”

Long time listener, first time caller here who is a lawyer but with no knowledge of this industry and who recently applied to F9 as an RTP applicant.

Discretionary Bonus Program. How is this defined? The original poster, monkey brains, of the above clause indicated that new hires in ground school were “demanded” by F9 to agree to the bonus. Was continued training and employment with F9 contingent on agreeing to the bonus?

“Other non-management employees.” How is this defined? I’m assuming this definition is limited to employees who are not in managerial roles as opposed to employees who are not hired by and/or under the control of corporate management. If the former, would this mean that a discretionary bonus offered to non-managment FA’s, flight ops, maintenance employees would have to be made available to pilots as well?

Aside from the pilots in training who were given the bonus “demand” and who were likely employees at the time of the demand, I think the issue whether giving discretionary bonuses to applicant pilots violates the contract hinges on when the bonus is given and when an applicant becomes an employee.

No way man, APC is the way to go for this information. Why bother going to the source? I'm probably not going to like what they have to say anyway.

Update?


https://i.imgur.com/B4xEVs2.png

It never ceases to amaze me how often both on this website and the pilot FB group that someone (or multiple people) will post some “update” about 5 days after it was announced and been discussed extensively and think that they were the first person to hear the news. Honestly perplexing.

Ask any of the new hires. This “Pre-employment bonus” gets paid the night after your first day in indoc. If that’s the case the union can argue it’s given to employees which our contract states must be given to everyone. That’s what they plan on arbitrating I’m hearing.

Any word on whether it’s mandatory or not yet? I’m hearing more and more about it becoming mandatory.

Thank you.

Can't be bothered to scroll, man!

Guess I missed this reference to my previous questions. My point is they could tell 2000 with an email, 500 on this site, or 1 if I send a dart. What do you think will work best?

I was at a recent interview, and they didn't say whether it was mandatory, or not. I'll take it regardless, as I have no plans to squander the great opportunity that I have been granted at Frontier. The aforementioned stated, I don't see how they could make a hefty loan, if that is how it is structured according to other posts in this forum, a mandatory pre-condition of employment.

3 years for a cfi to learn the 121 world ain’t that bad!

Sounds like a **** sandwich for anyone above a CFI then…

I see people on here saying it’s mandatory. Also hearing from subsequent classes that you can request an offer letter without the “bonus.” All I really know for sure is the rollout was not smooth and a few people in my class rejected it, and a few others were allowed to change their mind after the fact. I’m hearing that’s no longer the case, i.e. once you sign it that’s it.

Point is, it’s all hearsay at this point. If you have a class date approaching and you’ve signed a letter already, reply to them or HR and inquire about whether you can change your mind. If you have yet to receive a CJO or an offer letter, I wouldn’t worry about it yet. Ask them when the time comes. It’s up to $50K now which isn’t an insignificant sum (still pretty crummy the way they’ve implemented it as a deferred income loan or whatever).

Essentially the people in my class that seemed most vocal or concerned about it are also the ones who seem most likely to jump ship or have stated they already intend to. A lot of us want to stay though so despite the terms, it’s still $35K (and now $50) more than they otherwise would have earned.

A couple year’s seniority at a legacy is worth more than a mere $50,000. The difference between my pay and the pay at a legacy per hr is almost $50,000. Heck, the slope between 5th yr Captain pay and 12th yr here is almost 50 grand itself. Don’t be fooled by the money slight of hand here. Yr 2 CPT pay at a legacy is better than 10 yr CPT pay here. Is it a good living, yes. But I’d be leery of people flashing big money around here. They are 12+yrs or glued to Flica or both. If they say they aren’t, they’re lying or are circumventing the system in some fashion or are working their tails off. PBS here is worthless if you aren’t top 15 percent. Most of the pairings are garbage ie: leaving early and getting back late, redeye, leave late one day sit in a hotel 24-30 hrs then back day 3, etc. we need to do a lot of work to make this place better. Is it better than charter, cargo, corporate? Yes, from what I’ve heard from the people coming from those areas. Should you shoot higher? Yes. The fact that they are offering you 50 grand to come here should speak volumes. If you are coming here for a Florida base you are too late. You’ll hear that you can get Tampa, Miami, even Orlando in a month or two. This is true, but it’s because people are choosing upgrade over base, and/or leaving as fast as they can. There is a growing number of people choosing to remain FOs for quality of life and waiting to upgrade in Orlando, and most of the senior FO movement is taking upgrade in another base waiting for a space to open in Orlando. The CPT list in Orlando is quickly becoming Denver, moving only with retirement or the occasional CPT leaving for somewhere else. I’ve been here 8 yrs and I’m not moving up the list at all. Better than a regional? With the new pay rates at regionals I can’t exactly say for sure. But from my experience, it’s close, but yeah, it is better than a regional.

Oh yeah I have been here since June so not an issue for me. However I’m very curious as to the vibe being given off by the new hires. Is the bonus generally looked at as a positive or a negative? How many actually take it would be another curiosity point because it would measure how effective it is. I personally doubt I would have taken it but I’m also in a different financial position and don’t owe anything.

Hardest part for me is do I wanna give up my somewhat carefree lifestyle in FL to go commute to NYC or maybe Cali so I can say I fly a bigger plane and make more per hour.

If you live in FL the decision to leave is not an easy one for sure…

I get it, but you kinda missed the point. This isnt for people that are here thinking about leaving, that’s for you to figure out. Lord knows, I haven’t. It’s for people thinking of taking the sign on bonus and getting stuck for three years. Especially if you want to come here for a FL base.

Man reading in these forums can lead to depression goodness. F9 isn't bad take the bonus fly a ton crews are pretty awesome. All the crying from the senior citizens in here is because it's all about back in their day. I've been here 2 years it's been pretty smooth. I generally have 0 issue at the company. It's still a business and as long as you work for someone else of course you'll b***h about something. but some of you on here, if you hate it so much Just leave no one is stopping you. All this we should make more money etc crying is so ridiculous. Yeah you can make more but I'd rather come home to a wife that still loves me and kids who love me. Idk maybe my priorities are different. But the whiners please quit and go away. I hear it in the flight deck sometimes I simply say, just leave no one is stopping you go to Delta, Unitee etc like keep you BS negativity to yourself. And when that happens it's well "ahhh I don't wanna commute or start over," or the " I'll just wait and see what we do with our contract" it's like bro you're such a crying b***h I'm tired of the pessimistic rants. Listen if you're a new hire just take the money, all the nay sayers are salty we don't have a contract yet. Is it coming I'm sure. Could you make good money here yes I've done it many times. Learn the aircraft and fly it well, go to decent places and take care of yourself and family. You work for a company that wants to use you to make profit, so use the company it's simple take your bonus get typed, get experience if you wanna leave cool leave. If not just stick it out make 200k+ a year is it delta no but I rather deal with the cool ppl here than some whiny captain complaining about where's my hat. Sorry this is long winded. But for better words it's not so bad here. I enjoy it. Is it sexy meh idc the checks are good QOL is good and ppl are generally cool. Take that for what it's worth than listening to some 8 year captain cry about why he's not more rich like bro go love on your wife before someone else does.#RantOver

While I agree with a lot of the sentiment in your rant, I do think you are a bit flippantly dismissing the legitimate gripes of some of your co-workers - many of whom came to the airline with the exact same list of pros/cons as you have, but then have watched the company do a 180 on them in many of those areas.

I would love to be home with my wife more. And I was, until the company closed my base, forced me to commute, and then decided to make every trip uncommutable.

Things are always really black and white to people who are in the midst of a “high”.

Agreed. Closing a base, transitioning to mostly day trips, and going after pilots who call in sick is not a good look for many current or potential employees.

While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, it’s important to point out that this portion isn’t mutually exclusive. Lobbying to be paid an industry standard for the equipment we fly is a valid purpose, and it doesn’t interfere with your home life. This isn’t and shouldn’t be an either/or topic.

Please save your post and read it back to yourself in 30 years when you’re in your mid-50’s. You’ll then realize just how naive and young you sound. By then you’ll likely have experienced merger(s), bankruptcy, aweful SLI, base closure, paycut, divorce, health issues, and yes, you’ll suffer the opinion and advice from a co-pilot who’s been in the business for 15 minutes and thinks he’s got it all figured out.

Best of luck in your career.

Open Climb, I always appreciate your sentiment on here brother and almost always agree with you. But you know very well everything you just listed applies to every airline. US Airways, Continental etc etc etc

You and I will outlive this management group and we better fight for what we are worth keeping this show going on a daily bases



Here a response from an 8 year ish Captain ..

Amen brother, and we’re glad to have you. I only bid reserve so I can be home with my young family., made a lot less than my hard working class mates but still over 250 last year. Sleep in my own bed 24 days a month average. With about 30 years left could I start over ? Sure but on what planet would I want that. For those who do want that though.. absolutely do it ! Now is the time. We have a lot of issues here. And the company better come to the table. But my life’s is pretty amazing. Once you stop tying your identity to airplanes and the paint scheme on it life becomes a lot calmer. Little less APC and Insta helps a lot with that. Playing castle with your 3 year old daughter is a lot more rewarding than commuting to a cool paint scheme .. For me that is

I do want to add this though. The base closures, section 19s and Managements general neglect of our group should not be dismissed. However, if you want to leave an airline because management is mean you have another thing coming (sooner or later) at your next airline. I believe in our group and we will make things better

Amen brother

Nothing in my post is b!tching. It’s hard, uncensored truth for someone trying to make a life decision. The hiring atmosphere right now is unprecedented and I’m sure anyone trying to make a decision to commit three years to Frontier for a bonus might want as much information good or bad as they can get. I ran through a bunch of bullet points to dispel any myths they may encounter. Go through and read it again and you’ll see that, and you might want to refrain from the snarky immature attempts at insulting people on here, you’re better than that.

The denial phase. Emotionally trying to legitimate being a bottom feeder. Dude, look around. Just for context, a fellow bottom feeder at Spirit with your seniority is now making ~ $40/hr more.

Thought I would post in here about what I know about the sign-on 'bonus'. I interviewed yesterday in MIA and they tried to clarify it. It is not mandatory and you can choose whether or not you accept it when they send you the CJO/class date. 3 years, not pro-rated, taxed as a bonus. If you leave early, you have to pay it back plus interest, if you stay, then no interest is due. They are saying it isn't a loan which I personally think is wrong considering interest is required when/if paying it back (like any loan). Hope this clarifies it for some people inquiring.

Thanks for the update, rumors we're floating around of the bonus now being mandatory.

It absolutely is a loan though. You will be offered a promissory note at whatever the current interest rate is. Started around 4.1% and it’s up to about 4.5% from a friend in the upcoming class. Also it was explained to us (my class was the first to get the offer) that it was taxed as normal income, deferred. It got murky because - like everything else IRS related - it’s confusing. It won’t be reported till the end of the 3 year period. You’ll receive the full lump sum immediately, $50K for upcoming groups.

You’d better hold onto it though. Anyone departing early pays it back in full (as you said, not prorated). You’ll also pay the interest which has been accruing against your “not a loan.” obviously the hope is that some might spend it all, try to leave, and can’t afford to pay back $50K immediately. Now let’s say you stick around for at least 36 months. Great! Now you’re taxed on it (the April following the 3 year mark, when you do taxes). You’ll be taxed on not just the $50k, but the $50k + 36 months of interest. Either way you’re liable for all of it, whether it’s paying back to F9 or reporting it as earned income to the IRS; probably will be about $57,000 when it matures.

$35K was a big deal to a lot of people in my class. $50K is certainly a big chunk of money. But it sounds like they’re still not being super clear about all this, assuming they even understand it yet (no one did, when it got rolled out). You’ll sign a 3 year promissory note for $50K with 4.x% interest at least. You’ll get the whole lump sum, no taxes will be taken out and it won’t be reported to the IRS for a while. Be smart with the money. Many in my class researched options such as HYSA and CDs, a few threw them into stocks (wouldn’t recommend). To at least try and make something while the money sits.

The union needs to get involved because an unprecedented violation of the CBA is being set. This is not a bonus. F9 simply has decided to partially pay new hires up front for 3 years of service to rendered while working under the CBA. Instead of increasing compensation for the entire pilot group, F9 will just increase the loan amount to fill classes. Even if the loan is raised to 300k, F9 will still find it more cost effective. This is a long term game plan.

I agree with everything you're saying. I really don't see how anyone thinks of this as a legitimate 'bonus'. I just thought I would clarify what the current language the company is using to explain this 'bonus'. The tax and interest implications are not insignificant, so it is a tough choice, even if you think you'll be staying for 36 + months. 3 years is a long time in this business... I am excited to join F9 and have no plans of going anywhere for a long time, but the fine print on this has to make you stop and think. If I was in my early 20's and naive about these things I'm sure I would take it and immediately go out and buy a V6 Camaro, now I'm happy to have enough wisdom to at least sit on it and let it earn me money, if I decide to take it.

looks like they did a month ago.

Fellow pilots,
Recently, the company introduced its latest scheme to attract pilots and slow attrition at Frontier by offering $35,000 “signing bonuses” attached to a three- year employment commitment. ALPA opposes this ploy, as we believe that our airline’s inability to attract and retain pilots stems from a larger cultural problem that can only be addressed by an overhaul of management’s approach to labor relations. However, we feel it appropriate to leave the systemic problems aside for the moment and address just the bonus program.
First, pilots should be made aware of how the program was launched. Based on the rollout we are not certain management considered U.S. tax law when designing the program, which requires that participants sign a $35,000 promissory note. In fact, the first eligible new hires were still in ground school when the company demanded that they sign amended documents changing the terms of the agreement. Pilots were informed that they would now be charged interest on their “bonus” at a rate of 4.1%. In addition, each new hire pilot who accepts the funds will be charged income taxes on the $35,000 once their three- year commitment is complete and the promissory note is forgiven. Finally, any pilot who accepts this money and does not fulfill their obligation will not benefit from any proration of amount owed to the company.
More relevant to our current pilot group, the bonus program clearly violates Section 3.R of the CBA by offering a bonus to new hires, excluding all other Frontier pilots on the seniority list. Section 3.R. provides that, “Pilots of Frontier Airlines, Inc. shall participate in any Discretionary Bonus Program on the same terms and conditions of other non-management employees.” The unambiguous intent of this provision is for all pilots to be included in all bonus offerings that are provided to any employees of Frontier. The seemingly clever approach of giving a bonus in this way is merely an attempt to end-run around our CBA.
Furthermore, the bonus program violates the contract by circumventing LOA 4. This LOA, negotiated between Frontier and ALPA in 2019, allows the company to raise first-year hourly rates to 98.5% of second-year hourly rates. The intent of LOA 4 was to give the company the ability to attract pilots with increased pay in a manner that complies with the CBA. However, instead of utilizing the contractual mechanism already available to them within LOA 4, they chose to proceed in a manner that is not contractually compliant. Notably, the company

Air Line Pilots Association, International
www.alpa.org
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has chosen not to raise new hire pay to the levels agreed to by ALPA under the LOA.
Frontier pilots flying the line are the backbone of this company, and the safe, efficient, and profitable operation of this airline falls squarely upon our shoulders. Management’s choice to flout our contract and dangle a one-time cash payment to entice new pilots while ignoring those already wearing a Frontier uniform is short-sighted and will do nothing to improve retention in this historic job market.
ALPA has filed an Association grievance challenging the bonus program. We continue to object to management’s attempts to gut the protections afforded by our CBA and will keep the pilot group updated as the process unfolds. As always, your continued professionalism will allow this pilot group to rise above. If you have any questions, please contact your elected representatives or send us a DART.
In unity, FFT ME