no. That’s how you lose all protections. I can’t even begin to express the issue here. I’m gonna go ahead and say you should educate yourself on unions and why this would create the opportunity for scabs to kill all future negotiations.

bye.

 

Of all the things that arent going to happen anytime soon…..

Id be more excited about single pilot ops.

 

No one said get rid of the union. But there should be a FLOOR of years of experience that once past, you can't be relegated to lesser positioning. Sorta like tenure. It's ridiculous to think that a 35 yr 777 CA could be a 737 FO just because his company went bankrupt. He/she should at LEAST go to the bottom of the CA list at the new company. What would be better if that person could get a 777 position (for familiarity/continuity). Seniority means nothing if it's only local.

In NO OTHER industry or country does this happen.

 

I was single digit captain in base at a ULLC, almost 3 decades flying, and went to the bottom at a legacy. I couldn't disagree more. Sure, it would have been nice to come in at 15% relative seniority. But why should I bypass people for the upgrade that have been there longer than ? Or only if the company goes bankrupt? So now you punish people that were smart enough to leave the sinking ship, and reward the people that didn't try to leave. Where do you draw the line, 10 years, 20 years? Seniority system $uc#$. But it is better than anything else.

 

The argument I would make is If you were an Attorney General in Texas then moved to Oklahoma and got a new job. Would be odd if the only job you could get was as a junior prosecutor?

Like wise if your a 12 year A-320 Captain you should retain 12 year A-320 Captain pay and seat. Company seniority is different. That is where company longevity should matter. Even though your a 12 year Captain you should go to the very bottom of the list for that seat. (IDK about going from one type to another some times it's like going from AAA to AA other times it's like going from Soccer to Hockey.)

It would be a tough change with winners and losers at first. Eventually ALPA would be in charge of the training Like most Unions. A young pilot would do all the stuff they are doing now and eventually go to ALPA and either pay or be sponsored for a type rating. Later that same pilot could chose to upgrade or get a different type rating. based on availability.

Alpa controlling training is an important aspect of this. It is a huge burden to bare, but with that responsibility comes control, power and a real seat at the negotiating table. The ability to set Minimum rates (A-320 Cpt 12 =XXX$/hr) working conditions, how many pilots, Benefits and much more. One of the biggest advantages would be ALPA not spending untold millions negotiating nearly the same contract with how ever many airlines there are.

Its a steep hill to climb because it upsets the apple cart. That said it is a worth while goal. It is not completely one sided either. If Airlines could ditch all the time and energy they spend on training onto ALPA it would solve problems for them as well.

 

And why would any company hire me if they had to pay me year 12 pay, when they could hire a year 1 guy from the regionals? And how would it sit with you if you cannot upgrade because your company keeps hiring captains? No thanks.
And that is before the pipe dream of ALPA doing all the training. And just because they train the pilots does not in any way mean they can suddenly set the price per hour.

 

I'm answering this because it seems as if pilots have become so blinded within their community, they have forgotten how the normal business world works.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE MORE INDUSTRY SENIORITY.

This whole debate started w/ a mentioning of an ALPA universal seniority list. The seniority systems in place in the airlines were put in place by the companies - NOT the unions. There are TONS of labor unions in the US that aren't subject to seniority. All professional sports teams. Teachers. Steel workers. Police and firefighters. Postal workers. Nurses. Rail and auto workers. Actors and screen writers. All of the homebuilding arts (framers, roofers, plumbers, electricians, etc). Hell, even some commercial hotel cleaners have a union. NONE of these unions have pay bands subject to a seniority system.

 

This highlights a DIFFERENT problem. Regional pilots shouldn't be paid less. That's a whole nother debate.

But directly to your question, hiring should be set up where an airline could hire another CA and start them at 1st year CA pay. The benefit for the hiring airline is obvious - they'd get a much more experienced CA at 1st year pay with less initial training costs (vs. paying an upgrading FO who'd be receiving 2+ CA yr pay).

This is how the rest of the business world works. Ask any lawyer, doctor, etc.

To circumvent (if necessary), it would be easy enough to ensure in-house upgrades happened. Simply put a "minimum" percentage of in-house space for FOs for each class in the CBA. If there's an upgrade class of 30 pilots - the company would need to upgrade say 80% from the FO ranks (allowing 20% off the street CA hires). Similar to a flow (for hiring) - just for upgrades.

Why not?

This is scary. We've been operating this way for so long, we can't even fathom or recognize that there might be a better way.

 

I was thinking about how one would implement a master seniority list or some sort of experience thing if a company went under or someone changed companies.

A master seniority list would be one way, but we have operated this way for so long, how dare anyone have anything different. Kind of like the guys who ***** about pilots with 1600hrs in an airbus when they had to spend 10 years at a regional. Times change.

That being said, I sure as hell dont want a master seniority list as long as I am around. lol

I was thinking there could be some sort of way to at least keep people's pay if they changed companies or something, but they would then basically make all airlines hire lowtime and new pilots instead of seasoned ones.

It is weird to explain to someone that isn't in the industry how I can spend 15 years at a company, it goes bankrupt, and I start over at the bottom and lose all my quality of life and pay, just luck of the draw.

I do think there needs to be some sort of protections or master list done by ALPA to at least try and figure something out for protections for those who change companies, and it will suck no matter how it is implemented, because everyone is used to what we currently have.

 

Asking honestly… what incentive/ driver would be there for the company’s to hire such expensive labor? Rather than promote internally