How long for a contract?
03-14-2026 | 04:16 AM
#2411
On Reserve
Joined: Sep 2025
Posts: 18
Likes: 8
Yep not making any money yet some how Indigo is buying up airline all over the world. We don't have any money but we can pay to be over staffed, we can clearly afford high attrition. In fact we saved so much money on hotels we need to have pilots stay in hotels for 24+hrs for some reason. Cash was really tight so they could only afford to give the first year FO's a raise.
I am tired of these arguments. I was told this exact thing throughout my flying career. Time makes fools of us all, but when I hear this argument and think about what has happened in the last ten years. Time and Time again over and over reality has shown THAY DO HAVE THE MONEY they always had the money. the Problem is they rather spend it on something else. That is the prevailing attitude until their profits are threatened. Then suddenly and we find out they do have them Money. and that they always had the money. You want proof Bid for reserve and WITNESS the actions of crew scheduling. It will not take long for you to figure out that this is not an organization that is short on resources. Dysfunctional yes but apparently they can afford to be dysfunctional. That is what our low pay rates provide. excessive staff, the ability to staff any flying with premium in minutes and the ability to squander resources with some of the most ridiculous assignments imaginable. no need or even effort to improve schedule efficiency. These are not actions of a company under any financial pressure. If Indigo was genuinely not making any profit they would have sold Frontier a long time ago. Yet here we are. The difference between what you read in a book and what you see in reality. They should be the same , but they are not. Information has been used to control people for a long time. Which is fine with good info we all can make sound decisions the problem is your not getting good info. your getting the info that will make you fall in line drinking the koolaid so to speak.
This company will send any one of us down the river in a hart beat. As far as I am concerned they can pull it together and figure out how to pay us or they can sell us. I don't care ,but I am not going to finance this kind of incompetency with my labor for the rest of my career
Also please tell me that you do not work for the F9 Union.
I am tired of these arguments. I was told this exact thing throughout my flying career. Time makes fools of us all, but when I hear this argument and think about what has happened in the last ten years. Time and Time again over and over reality has shown THAY DO HAVE THE MONEY they always had the money. the Problem is they rather spend it on something else. That is the prevailing attitude until their profits are threatened. Then suddenly and we find out they do have them Money. and that they always had the money. You want proof Bid for reserve and WITNESS the actions of crew scheduling. It will not take long for you to figure out that this is not an organization that is short on resources. Dysfunctional yes but apparently they can afford to be dysfunctional. That is what our low pay rates provide. excessive staff, the ability to staff any flying with premium in minutes and the ability to squander resources with some of the most ridiculous assignments imaginable. no need or even effort to improve schedule efficiency. These are not actions of a company under any financial pressure. If Indigo was genuinely not making any profit they would have sold Frontier a long time ago. Yet here we are. The difference between what you read in a book and what you see in reality. They should be the same , but they are not. Information has been used to control people for a long time. Which is fine with good info we all can make sound decisions the problem is your not getting good info. your getting the info that will make you fall in line drinking the koolaid so to speak.
This company will send any one of us down the river in a hart beat. As far as I am concerned they can pull it together and figure out how to pay us or they can sell us. I don't care ,but I am not going to finance this kind of incompetency with my labor for the rest of my career
Also please tell me that you do not work for the F9 Union.
2. I'm not going to respond one by one to your points, but nothing you said about Frontier/Indigo's financials is true, and the conclusions (of fraud) that you are drawing from the internal dysfunction are off base. Like with most things, there is no conspiracy here, and the simplest answer is the correct one.
03-14-2026 | 05:20 AM
#2412
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,652
Likes: 103
Yep not making any money yet some how Indigo is buying up airline all over the world……… This company will send any one of us down the river in a hart beat. As far as I am concerned they can pull it together and figure out how to pay us or they can sell us. I don't care ,but I am not going to finance this kind of incompetency with my labor for the rest of my career
Also please tell me that you do not work for the F9 Union.
Also please tell me that you do not work for the F9 Union.
03-14-2026 | 07:21 AM
#2413
On Reserve
Joined: Jan 2025
Posts: 83
Likes: 11
Indigo may have the money, but are they choosing to spend it where they are more likely to see a positive return? If you were investing your money in a company that is struggling, would you want them to significantly increase their expenses and tell management to magically make it work, or would you insist on righting the ship before investing more? I’d love to see you guys make legacy pay, but until the company can consistently show a profit, they will have an extremely strong argument to the mediator that the pilot’s demands are simply unreasonable. Until Frontier shows that they are a profitable entity, management/Indigo will refuse to throw gas on the fire and the NMB will likely agree.
This ^
any logical person will understand this. A company not making money will never be able to afford to pay its employees more. Especially when there is no indication that the company is going to become profitable again. The only people who don’t understand are the few stubborn employees that think they deserve legacy pay rates because they fly the same equipment. Our company is LOSING money. We are closer to bankruptcy concessions than a new CBA in my opinion. Sure let’s press management for a new CBA then furlough 500 pilots because they can’t afford it 2 years from now.
03-14-2026 | 09:05 AM
#2414
Almost there
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 111
Why do Unions exist? In particular airline unions? What happened after WW2 when there was a massive surplus of pilots now in the industry? Why were we told for generations that regionals couldn’t pay anymore than poverty wages and then suddenly overnight they could afford 400% pay increases?
Anerican steel was lost because the US government didn’t defend our steel against slave labor prices and sub par quality.
American car manufacturers lost because they told the American public what cars they wanted when the foreign manufactures actually produced what Americans wanted.
The bedrock of ALPA is equal pay for equal work. Pilots of Frontier have known and been screaming for years that management was mismanaging the airline into oblivion and now we are having to suffer the consequences of that mismanagement. Pilots have more invested into an airline than any other work group due to the constraints of the seniority system. We want it to succeed so we can succeed. The questions is how will we come to an accord to ensure that success?
03-14-2026 | 02:50 PM
#2415
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 102
From: Joystick Operator
The last few pages on this thread serve a good purpose to remind us all of a few things,
Do your job safely and go home.
If you have a problem, call your reps, send a DART, ask questions, talk to the union volunteers about ideas you have and see why they may or may not work.
Posting on the forums, or facebook or bitching in the cockpit do nothing to help your cause because the people who need to see/hear things aren't on there. We have reps, committees, and volunteers for a reason.
Do your job safely and go home.
If you have a problem, call your reps, send a DART, ask questions, talk to the union volunteers about ideas you have and see why they may or may not work.
Posting on the forums, or facebook or bitching in the cockpit do nothing to help your cause because the people who need to see/hear things aren't on there. We have reps, committees, and volunteers for a reason.
03-14-2026 | 03:12 PM
#2416
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 205
Likes: 8
1. I am an investor, I don't work for F9, the F9 union, or anywhere in aviation.
2. I'm not going to respond one by one to your points, but nothing you said about Frontier/Indigo's financials is true, and the conclusions (of fraud) that you are drawing from the internal dysfunction are off base. Like with most things, there is no conspiracy here, and the simplest answer is the correct one.
2. I'm not going to respond one by one to your points, but nothing you said about Frontier/Indigo's financials is true, and the conclusions (of fraud) that you are drawing from the internal dysfunction are off base. Like with most things, there is no conspiracy here, and the simplest answer is the correct one.
03-14-2026 | 06:03 PM
#2417
On Reserve
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 170
Likes: 29
1. I am an investor, I don't work for F9, the F9 union, or anywhere in aviation.
2. I'm not going to respond one by one to your points, but nothing you said about Frontier/Indigo's financials is true, and the conclusions (of fraud) that you are drawing from the internal dysfunction are off base. Like with most things, there is no conspiracy here, and the simplest answer is the correct one.
2. I'm not going to respond one by one to your points, but nothing you said about Frontier/Indigo's financials is true, and the conclusions (of fraud) that you are drawing from the internal dysfunction are off base. Like with most things, there is no conspiracy here, and the simplest answer is the correct one.
So Mister investor Why are you investing money into a company that has been going down hill ever since the IPO and is not making any money? An airline no less. Which has not been generating meaningful profit in a long time. You do know the S&P 500 exists.
And why do you busy your self with it so much you feel the need to come onto an industry website and brow beat the pilots.
I'll understand if you can't answer you are likely rounding up investors for new fund based on a highly leveraged future IPO from NK.
03-14-2026 | 06:30 PM
#2418
On Reserve
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 170
Likes: 29
1. I am an investor, I don't work for F9, the F9 union, or anywhere in aviation.
2. I'm not going to respond one by one to your points, but nothing you said about Frontier/Indigo's financials is true, and the conclusions (of fraud) that you are drawing from the internal dysfunction are off base. Like with most things, there is no conspiracy here, and the simplest answer is the correct one.
2. I'm not going to respond one by one to your points, but nothing you said about Frontier/Indigo's financials is true, and the conclusions (of fraud) that you are drawing from the internal dysfunction are off base. Like with most things, there is no conspiracy here, and the simplest answer is the correct one.
Frontier has Lowest overhead of any airline our size
the most fuel efferent fleet
we spend the least money on apps (LIDO, DoCUNET eca)
We spend the least on gates
we have the lowest labor costs
Frontier has a massive advantage and still we are not making money. And your investing in frontier to the point of telling the pilots who make this airline run we shouldn't get a raise because you don't want to lose more money. I think you should find some honest work for your own sake. This investing thing likely is not going to work out for you.
03-14-2026 | 06:36 PM
#2419
On Reserve
Joined: Sep 2025
Posts: 18
Likes: 8
Dang you just took me to school.
So Mister investor Why are you investing money into a company that has been going down hill ever since the IPO and is not making any money? An airline no less. Which has not been generating meaningful profit in a long time. You do know the S&P 500 exists.
And why do you busy your self with it so much you feel the need to come onto an industry website and brow beat the pilots.
I'll understand if you can't answer you are likely rounding up investors for new fund based on a highly leveraged future IPO from NK.
So Mister investor Why are you investing money into a company that has been going down hill ever since the IPO and is not making any money? An airline no less. Which has not been generating meaningful profit in a long time. You do know the S&P 500 exists.
And why do you busy your self with it so much you feel the need to come onto an industry website and brow beat the pilots.
I'll understand if you can't answer you are likely rounding up investors for new fund based on a highly leveraged future IPO from NK.
I'm on here because there is occasionally useful information on here. I started posting (when I'm bored) because I saw some posts about Frontier's financials that made no sense, and figured maybe I could help some pilots better understand their company's results...in my opinion if you work for a public company, especially in a sector as volatile as aviation, you don't have to be an expert, but should understand the financials to a level where you can make smart career decisions based on them. Never intended to come on here and "brow beat" pilots, but its silly to see some of you dreaming up conspiracies and acting like Indigo is printing money while you are struggling when in reality its the other way around. Instead of coming on here with crazy ideas, maybe talk to your union reps to understand why they are making the decisions they are; I promise you they aren't taking it easy on management for fun--I've never seen a union that doesn't like to bully their company and help boost their members' salaries.
No idea what you are talking about on the last point--the sentence doesn't even make sense.
It seems that many of you would prefer non-commercial pilots like myself not to comment on here, so I will not post any more. Hope things work out for you Frontier folks.
03-14-2026 | 07:19 PM
#2420
On Reserve
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 170
Likes: 29
Again to many of these comments sound logical and intellectual but lack the realworld experience of just getting a raise. Always Always Always you will be told "we just don't have the money" That cost savings is a competitive advantage management will cling to for dear life. You want to take about financials good luck. Most of us have little ability to understand the subtle nuances of where they are sweeping the money. It would require a special kind of naivety to think they are not.
I don't want people in our Union who say things like this. It's delusional It's like going to a car dealer and paying sticker price on a car because If you negotiate a better you could put the car dealer out of business. YOUR NOT BRINGING THAT KIND OF TALENT TO THE TABLE. It's like not going to a fashion show because your worried about being sexually harassed by the super models. THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN EITHER. We (the pilot group) need you to fight tooth and nail for every dime, and part of that is knowing these people will feed you "we can't afford to give you a raise" line of BS and negotiating through it. The problem I and many of us have is the distinct lack of action and effort. The constant drum beat of "you can't get a raise they don't have any money" It's dis arming it says don't worry about this it's trying to convince you that asking and negotiating is a waisted effort so why bother. I see this attitude from our leadership. I wonder what they are waiting for, What is the catalyst. From what I could see last time it was hiring. We couldn't grow because we couldn't hire. With the never ending stream of Cadets. That is not going to be it this time. So how are we going to drag them to the table in any meaningful way? IDK
I can tell you what will NEVER get them to the table is saying "we just not making any money right now so why bother" Which is exactly why we are where we are right now. Nothing is getting done because there is no pressure there is no advantage to getting us a contract it's all costs and no benefit, and until that math changes ... no contract
Even massive profits won't change that.
I don't want people in our Union who say things like this. It's delusional It's like going to a car dealer and paying sticker price on a car because If you negotiate a better you could put the car dealer out of business. YOUR NOT BRINGING THAT KIND OF TALENT TO THE TABLE. It's like not going to a fashion show because your worried about being sexually harassed by the super models. THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN EITHER. We (the pilot group) need you to fight tooth and nail for every dime, and part of that is knowing these people will feed you "we can't afford to give you a raise" line of BS and negotiating through it. The problem I and many of us have is the distinct lack of action and effort. The constant drum beat of "you can't get a raise they don't have any money" It's dis arming it says don't worry about this it's trying to convince you that asking and negotiating is a waisted effort so why bother. I see this attitude from our leadership. I wonder what they are waiting for, What is the catalyst. From what I could see last time it was hiring. We couldn't grow because we couldn't hire. With the never ending stream of Cadets. That is not going to be it this time. So how are we going to drag them to the table in any meaningful way? IDK
I can tell you what will NEVER get them to the table is saying "we just not making any money right now so why bother" Which is exactly why we are where we are right now. Nothing is getting done because there is no pressure there is no advantage to getting us a contract it's all costs and no benefit, and until that math changes ... no contract
Even massive profits won't change that.
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