Should you come here? Smiles don't pay bills.
01-16-2024, 05:16 PM
#41
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2023
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by spooldup
This is true... Why would ALPA or ANYONE at ANY of these companies be alright with this? Horrific idea. Why do that when they can just hire you off the street starting at year 1 pay at the bottom of the totem pole instead of giving you something because you are so desperate to leave your current carrier.
and We would be starting at the bottom. There is no way around that we would start from 100% seniority as FO.
I don't know how else to decribe this I feel like I am riding a bull at a Rodeo and F9 is the bull just trying his damedist to buck me off and I am just trying to hold on, meanwhile the years go by and I don't even know where to live. If I do stick around (which is feeling less likely by the day) I want to be paid like an airbus Captain.
01-16-2024, 05:37 PM
#42
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2023
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by dracir1
So basically, F9 is a Big 3 flow instrument. Where the top of the list is offered the flow (to take or leave) and continues until the last accepts.
Couple of issues here:
1) Senior pilots here will NEVER go for that. One, because if they chose to stay and 1/2 (or more) of the list below them leaves, they're SOL. Why would a senior CA put him/herself in that predicament.
2). Junior FOs still have no incentive to stay. Much like the flow at Envoy, guys at the bottom are still hustlin to get hired prior to their flow date.
3). This really only benefits junior CAs and senior FOs (6 to 9 years on property) as they get to see how many flow takers there are above them while also enjoying their same seniority benefits. Given that I'm in this group, I'd welcome the deal (skeptically) but still wouldn't expect this to move Indigo/BB.
4). All of this would have to be worked out by ALPA F9 while also preparing for negotiations. Things like this don't happen overnight and would it be possible to make this work before a new TA is offered (say late 2025 at the earliest)?
This is just an OK idea. If there was a precedent or a framework already in place, maybe it makes sense. But it is nice to see peeps thinkin outside the box.
Couple of issues here:
1) Senior pilots here will NEVER go for that. One, because if they chose to stay and 1/2 (or more) of the list below them leaves, they're SOL. Why would a senior CA put him/herself in that predicament.
2). Junior FOs still have no incentive to stay. Much like the flow at Envoy, guys at the bottom are still hustlin to get hired prior to their flow date.
3). This really only benefits junior CAs and senior FOs (6 to 9 years on property) as they get to see how many flow takers there are above them while also enjoying their same seniority benefits. Given that I'm in this group, I'd welcome the deal (skeptically) but still wouldn't expect this to move Indigo/BB.
4). All of this would have to be worked out by ALPA F9 while also preparing for negotiations. Things like this don't happen overnight and would it be possible to make this work before a new TA is offered (say late 2025 at the earliest)?
This is just an OK idea. If there was a precedent or a framework already in place, maybe it makes sense. But it is nice to see peeps thinkin outside the box.
01-16-2024, 06:32 PM
#44
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2023
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by dracir1
If you're the Big 3, why would you EVER take a meeting w/ ALPA F9? You think ALPA UA is gonna be cool w/ that? Perhaps you don't realize, ALPA isn't one big organization as much as it is many smaller ones. ALPA DL isn't ALPA UA which isn't ALPA NK which isn't ALPA F9.
And what do we have to offer that they're not already getting? Pilots that want to leave put out an app and usually get called. Then, they're vetted and chosen (or not). Why take a risk and skip the process for a pilot force that DIDN'T indicate they wanted to leave F9 and still has to willfully resign.
You admit it yourself - you don't want to leave. But you expect the Big 3 to help you leverage a better rate?
A better question might be - what kind of pilots exist at F9 that won't fight for their own contract (and why would anyone else want them)?
And what do we have to offer that they're not already getting? Pilots that want to leave put out an app and usually get called. Then, they're vetted and chosen (or not). Why take a risk and skip the process for a pilot force that DIDN'T indicate they wanted to leave F9 and still has to willfully resign.
You admit it yourself - you don't want to leave. But you expect the Big 3 to help you leverage a better rate?
A better question might be - what kind of pilots exist at F9 that won't fight for their own contract (and why would anyone else want them)?
1)Yes
2)I don't see why UA alpa would be against it they are alredy hiring our FO's
3)Because many airlines such as our own are suffering from an Experance Gap
4)Nothing about this forces pilots out that would be illegal
5)Just because I don't want to leave does not mean I want to get bounced around the Country for the next 10 years while the revolving door on the Union tries to cobble together some non garbage contract out of duct tape and bubble gum.
6) Yes I belive high rates of Attrition from the Mid ranks is infact our only barging Chip as stated by the Union
7)This is fighting. Sun Tzu says you attack where your opponent is not More...https://suntzusaid.com/book/6
dracir honestly these points you make are weak. Perhaps you have better Ideas and we would all like to hear them. The Vibe i am getting from what your saying is shut up and eat this s sandwich. I say no take your s sandwich and place it some where there is no sun. We can negotiate like Palestinians (AKA the give it to me its all mine stragety) and it will work out just as well for us as it did for them. If we want a contract we need an angle. We need to find a postion of strength and push that advantage. As far as I can see Attrition is all we have.
That said You spend so much Time on APC you must have some fantastic insight. Other then Attrition what are our strengths? How are we going to force F9 to the Negotiating table? Or was I right about that sandwich?
01-16-2024, 06:41 PM
#45
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2023
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by goinaround
Why would any of you guys think some kind of flow program be a good idea? Just apply. You'll get an email within a week.
The point is not to leave but to either get a contract or Leave. Honestly I rather not Leave and start over again, but I'll be damed id I am going to bounced all over the country to do 5 hr day turns for 50% less. This is a way to drag them to the table an give people an easy out when reach the maximum level of what they are willing to deal with. Make leaving easy and you will find what people will deal with is much less.
01-16-2024, 07:09 PM
#46
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2023
Posts: 87
Originally Posted by BagMan
to answer your questions
1)Yes
2)I don't see why UA alpa would be against it they are alredy hiring our FO's
3)Because many airlines such as our own are suffering from an Experance Gap
4)Nothing about this forces pilots out that would be illegal
5)Just because I don't want to leave does not mean I want to get bounced around the Country for the next 10 years while the revolving door on the Union tries to cobble together some non garbage contract out of duct tape and bubble gum.
6) Yes I belive high rates of Attrition from the Mid ranks is infact our only barging Chip as stated by the Union
7)This is fighting. Sun Tzu says you attack where your opponent is not More...https://suntzusaid.com/book/6
dracir honestly these points you make are weak. Perhaps you have better Ideas and we would all like to hear them. The Vibe i am getting from what your saying is shut up and eat this s sandwich. I say no take your s sandwich and place it some where there is no sun. We can negotiate like Palestinians (AKA the give it to me its all mine stragety) and it will work out just as well for us as it did for them. If we want a contract we need an angle. We need to find a postion of strength and push that advantage. As far as I can see Attrition is all we have.
That said You spend so much Time on APC you must have some fantastic insight. Other then Attrition what are our strengths? How are we going to force F9 to the Negotiating table? Or was I right about that sandwich?
1)Yes
2)I don't see why UA alpa would be against it they are alredy hiring our FO's
3)Because many airlines such as our own are suffering from an Experance Gap
4)Nothing about this forces pilots out that would be illegal
5)Just because I don't want to leave does not mean I want to get bounced around the Country for the next 10 years while the revolving door on the Union tries to cobble together some non garbage contract out of duct tape and bubble gum.
6) Yes I belive high rates of Attrition from the Mid ranks is infact our only barging Chip as stated by the Union
7)This is fighting. Sun Tzu says you attack where your opponent is not More...https://suntzusaid.com/book/6
dracir honestly these points you make are weak. Perhaps you have better Ideas and we would all like to hear them. The Vibe i am getting from what your saying is shut up and eat this s sandwich. I say no take your s sandwich and place it some where there is no sun. We can negotiate like Palestinians (AKA the give it to me its all mine stragety) and it will work out just as well for us as it did for them. If we want a contract we need an angle. We need to find a postion of strength and push that advantage. As far as I can see Attrition is all we have.
That said You spend so much Time on APC you must have some fantastic insight. Other then Attrition what are our strengths? How are we going to force F9 to the Negotiating table? Or was I right about that sandwich?
And, what even is there to streamline as far as the interview process? Spend the time filling out an app and go out for a day or two to interview. How does it get more streamlined than that? What does a streamlined process look like to you? A flow?
F9 ALPA also has to best represent the interests of a majority of pilots, and I'd be very surprised if you could find significant consensus about which of the 3 legacies to formalize an agreement with.
You're also asking F9 ALPA to facilitate the exit of its dues-paying members, reducing its own revenue stream, and increasing its workload in the middle of negotiations. Who exactly from the union would spearhead this, who would they talk to, and what happens when the people structuring this scheme decide to participate and head out the door?
It poses no tangible benefits to UAL, DAL, AAL management.
It increases the union's workload while also diminishing the dues the union uses to do their work.
It probably reduces payroll expenses for the company by facilitating the exit of people with longevity in favor of first-year cadets who have a 3 year loan around their neck.
The only people it would benefit are those who are unhappy but too lazy/unwilling/unable to do the work to apply elsewhere.
If attrition is all the union has, put your money where your mouth is and vote with your feet instead of expecting someone else to do the leg work for you.
This is such a poorly thought-out, nonsensical, half-baked, ridiculous idea.
01-17-2024, 10:48 AM
#47
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2023
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by AntiCompanyMan
UAL, DAL, etc ALPA are not part of the hiring process. UAL ALPA is NOT hiring F9 FOs, UAL management is. F9 ALPA would have to negotiate with UAL, DAL, etc management. What incentive do the legacies have to do this? They do not lack applicants, and anyone with experience could leave and get hired elsewhere if they wanted to. They already have pipelines that they've established (aviate, propel, wholly owned, etc), like F9 with their cadets, Purdue, ATP, etc. Why would they undercut their own pipelines by facilitating or formalizing a pipeline from F9? Would that not increase attrition from their own regionals to F9 to take advantage of this nonsensical pipeline you're proposing?
And, what even is there to streamline as far as the interview process? Spend the time filling out an app and go out for a day or two to interview. How does it get more streamlined than that? What does a streamlined process look like to you? A flow?
F9 ALPA also has to best represent the interests of a majority of pilots, and I'd be very surprised if you could find significant consensus about which of the 3 legacies to formalize an agreement with.
You're also asking F9 ALPA to facilitate the exit of its dues-paying members, reducing its own revenue stream, and increasing its workload in the middle of negotiations. Who exactly from the union would spearhead this, who would they talk to, and what happens when the people structuring this scheme decide to participate and head out the door?
It poses no tangible benefits to UAL, DAL, AAL management.
It increases the union's workload while also diminishing the dues the union uses to do their work.
It probably reduces payroll expenses for the company by facilitating the exit of people with longevity in favor of first-year cadets who have a 3 year loan around their neck.
The only people it would benefit are those who are unhappy but too lazy/unwilling/unable to do the work to apply elsewhere.
If attrition is all the union has, put your money where your mouth is and vote with your feet instead of expecting someone else to do the leg work for you.
This is such a poorly thought-out, nonsensical, half-baked, ridiculous idea.
And, what even is there to streamline as far as the interview process? Spend the time filling out an app and go out for a day or two to interview. How does it get more streamlined than that? What does a streamlined process look like to you? A flow?
F9 ALPA also has to best represent the interests of a majority of pilots, and I'd be very surprised if you could find significant consensus about which of the 3 legacies to formalize an agreement with.
You're also asking F9 ALPA to facilitate the exit of its dues-paying members, reducing its own revenue stream, and increasing its workload in the middle of negotiations. Who exactly from the union would spearhead this, who would they talk to, and what happens when the people structuring this scheme decide to participate and head out the door?
It poses no tangible benefits to UAL, DAL, AAL management.
It increases the union's workload while also diminishing the dues the union uses to do their work.
It probably reduces payroll expenses for the company by facilitating the exit of people with longevity in favor of first-year cadets who have a 3 year loan around their neck.
The only people it would benefit are those who are unhappy but too lazy/unwilling/unable to do the work to apply elsewhere.
If attrition is all the union has, put your money where your mouth is and vote with your feet instead of expecting someone else to do the leg work for you.
This is such a poorly thought-out, nonsensical, half-baked, ridiculous idea.
As far as Voting with my feet I am getting there. At first I thought it was the Company then I thought it was the Union ,But what I am starting to realize it that it is the Pilot Group. Lazy Risk Adverse and always willing to eat up what ever is being served. Looking at the Attitudes on this board it's no wonder we are not going to get a contract.
01-17-2024, 12:16 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 484
Originally Posted by BagMan
As far as Voting with my feet I am getting there. At first I thought it was the Company then I thought it was the Union ,But what I am starting to realize it that it is the Pilot Group. Lazy Risk Adverse and always willing to eat up what ever is being served.
Originally Posted by AntiCompanyMan
The only people it would benefit are those who are unhappy but too lazy/unwilling/unable to do the work to apply elsewhere.
Originally Posted by AntiCompanyMan
This is such a poorly thought-out, nonsensical, half-baked, ridiculous idea.
01-17-2024, 05:08 PM
#49
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2023
Posts: 87
Originally Posted by BagMan
So what else do we have then? So far is I can tell the Union NC makes only modist proposals only to be told to pound sand yet somehow this is occuping all their time?
As far as Voting with my feet I am getting there. At first I thought it was the Company then I thought it was the Union ,But what I am starting to realize it that it is the Pilot Group. Lazy Risk Adverse and always willing to eat up what ever is being served. Looking at the Attitudes on this board it's no wonder we are not going to get a contract.
As far as Voting with my feet I am getting there. At first I thought it was the Company then I thought it was the Union ,But what I am starting to realize it that it is the Pilot Group. Lazy Risk Adverse and always willing to eat up what ever is being served. Looking at the Attitudes on this board it's no wonder we are not going to get a contract.
just an observation, but you seem to have zero grasp of the collective bargaining process
01-17-2024, 05:21 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,356
Originally Posted by BagMan
to answer your questions
1)Yes
2)I don't see why UA alpa would be against it they are alredy hiring our FO's
3)Because many airlines such as our own are suffering from an Experance Gap
4)Nothing about this forces pilots out that would be illegal
5)Just because I don't want to leave does not mean I want to get bounced around the Country for the next 10 years while the revolving door on the Union tries to cobble together some non garbage contract out of duct tape and bubble gum.
6) Yes I belive high rates of Attrition from the Mid ranks is infact our only barging Chip as stated by the Union
7)This is fighting. Sun Tzu says you attack where your opponent is not More...https://suntzusaid.com/book/6
dracir honestly these points you make are weak. Perhaps you have better Ideas and we would all like to hear them. The Vibe i am getting from what your saying is shut up and eat this s sandwich. I say no take your s sandwich and place it some where there is no sun. We can negotiate like Palestinians (AKA the give it to me its all mine stragety) and it will work out just as well for us as it did for them. If we want a contract we need an angle. We need to find a postion of strength and push that advantage. As far as I can see Attrition is all we have.
That said You spend so much Time on APC you must have some fantastic insight. Other then Attrition what are our strengths? How are we going to force F9 to the Negotiating table? Or was I right about that sandwich?
1)Yes
2)I don't see why UA alpa would be against it they are alredy hiring our FO's
3)Because many airlines such as our own are suffering from an Experance Gap
4)Nothing about this forces pilots out that would be illegal
5)Just because I don't want to leave does not mean I want to get bounced around the Country for the next 10 years while the revolving door on the Union tries to cobble together some non garbage contract out of duct tape and bubble gum.
6) Yes I belive high rates of Attrition from the Mid ranks is infact our only barging Chip as stated by the Union
7)This is fighting. Sun Tzu says you attack where your opponent is not More...https://suntzusaid.com/book/6
dracir honestly these points you make are weak. Perhaps you have better Ideas and we would all like to hear them. The Vibe i am getting from what your saying is shut up and eat this s sandwich. I say no take your s sandwich and place it some where there is no sun. We can negotiate like Palestinians (AKA the give it to me its all mine stragety) and it will work out just as well for us as it did for them. If we want a contract we need an angle. We need to find a postion of strength and push that advantage. As far as I can see Attrition is all we have.
That said You spend so much Time on APC you must have some fantastic insight. Other then Attrition what are our strengths? How are we going to force F9 to the Negotiating table? Or was I right about that sandwich?
But to answer most of your inputs, I think others have given the same insight. ANTICompany wrote about the same thing I did.
Your strategy will not work. There is no other strategy that I (or anyone else) is going to come up with. We are all eating the S sandwich. Sun Tzu principles of mass, manuever, striking where your oponent is weakest - (lol, where is that) etc. do not apply here (I'm ex-military). It is the Railway Act and collective bargaining. In fact, the union JUST sent out a memo sayin status quo must now be maintained. It is what it is.
And as many other have noted, if you REALLY were serious about change you would spend less time on here and take up a position in the union and express those ideas there. Sent a DART. Bother your LEC rep. Be the Patriot and lead the way. If you're looking for support here, that's silly. Again, it needs to come from the UNION.
I, on the other hand, am working on my apps.
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