Originally Posted by Cameronhoward

You mean aircraft 671? The one that flew passengers for the first time today? Yeah it's already in service...

Originally Posted by spooldup

See, This is where its confusing, because of all this data you posted, we should be all sitting around with 70hr lines and not getting paid? Meanwhile premium out the whazoo, reserves getting used every day and doing 55+hrs a month, and plenty of lines.

Originally Posted by VisionWings

FFTpilots.com it’s unofficial. But if you look at top 15 departures for 2024 versus 2025 it’s mighty shocking.


month | 2024 | 2025 | difference | % change YoY

may | 12,881 | 11,530 | -1351 | -10.48%
june | 13,540 | 11,803 |-1,737 | -12.82%
july | 13,787 | 11,924 |-1863 | -13.5%

Block hours are a better metric since departures don’t account for leg length. But yes there was a large and disappointing reduction this summer. Sept block hours are the same as last year. Still not great considering 15 more aircraft and pilots.

Now it could be they’re making this up with newer destinations. But I doubt it. We are constantly told we are overstaffed. This shows not only do we have less departures than we did the previous year. 10% less at minimum. Which would not only mean all the new guys are redundant but so are many of the people hired last year.


At add insult to injury we haven’t had any filings which equate this reduction in aircraft utilization with increased profit. You don’t know that. It’s impossible to say what our profit or losses would have been had we kept a higher utilization schedule. Maybe we would have been worse off? We have people being paid who don’t have places to fly to. I imagine many of these flight attendants hired are also being underutilized because of the current over staffing. More planes isn’t the solution when you have people not being utilized. Depends again. What if we need everybody on Thursday-Monday but not Tuesday and Wednesday. What if we are still just staffed for a full weeks schedule instead of what we are doing now? The problem is we’ve made an experience so cheap that it isn’t worth the price of admission. We don’t have repeat customers to build frequency from many city pairings.


the solution is change top down. Or realistically. Start paying your face of the company the gate agents and increase the standards required for the position. No more yoga pants. Put them in Pant suits that are uniform and pay people to manage the gate agents and operations at hubs and out stations.

Correct the image problem and you maybe can save the company.


But you have a moral problem of people who are working the same job as other carriers but for less income because of mismanagement at the top.
The last few paragraphs changed the subject back to your idea of becoming more like SWA. A bit interesting since SWA is becoming more like us currently.

canary in the coal mine is the 5 years of maybe this year we’ll hit profit while our peers like jetBlue and Spirit fail to bring in their usual margins.

we are a dying model.
We are changing. Change takes time. More Bundled stuff, focus on CC, Bigger front seat, talk of WiFi. Not enough we agree but change is happening regardless.
we are a dying model.

Investment at this stage is likely too late and two wrongs don’t make a right. Meaning a merger with another failing business just hastens our fuel burn to bingo. Maybe again. IMO one of our biggest problems is cancellations and the failure to have backup options for our pax. Delays and misconnect is second worst. A bigger airline with more frequency can mitigate that. The rest of the problems most people can deal with for the price if they could just get there on time.

Originally Posted by shrsailplanes

100% correct. Honey the Badger is never going into service for us

Originally Posted by shrsailplanes

New aircraft positions will be sold and so will existing aircraft. Indigo isn’t interested in rebranding

Originally Posted by Aero1900

A lot of drama and doomsday talk here.

Let's look at a few facts for perspective.

Frontier was profitable in the full year of 2024. $85 Million net profit for the year. Yes, we lost about 40 Million in Q1 but even after that loss we ended the quarter with $889 Million in liquidity.

Our biggest competitor is in deep, deep trouble and likely to shrink significantly or go away all together which could give us a near monopoly of the low end of the market.

We are far from dead. Everyone needs to relax.

Originally Posted by VisionWings

we have losses in what should’ve been our most profitable quarter which typically subsidizes the other quarters.


it’s not doom and gloom to see that this isn’t a frontier problem this is a product people don’t want. JetBlue isn’t making profit spirit isn’t making profit we aren’t making profit.


that’s very much worrisome. Years have come and gone since Covid. What has changed is there are products to compete with us. We need a revolution in our product not slapping make up on a pig. You’re being silly when you act like this realistic conversation of the state of affairs is being doom and gloom.


after we post losses this quarter again feel free to come back and tell us all how optimistic you are about our product.

I bet you don’t even take your family on us for vacations or travel.

Originally Posted by VisionWings

we have losses in what should’ve been our most profitable quarter which typically subsidizes the other quarters.


it’s not doom and gloom to see that this isn’t a frontier problem this is a product people don’t want. JetBlue isn’t making profit spirit isn’t making profit we aren’t making profit.


that’s very much worrisome. Years have come and gone since Covid. What has changed is there are products to compete with us. We need a revolution in our product not slapping make up on a pig. You’re being silly when you act like this realistic conversation of the state of affairs is being doom and gloom.


after we post losses this quarter again feel free to come back and tell us all how optimistic you are about our product.

I bet you don’t even take your family on us for vacations or travel.

Originally Posted by spooldup

We have MIGHT (depending on Wednesday) losses on a sector of travel that is HUGELY swung by the economy. We don't have business travelers that will always need to be moving like the legacies and most of our passengers are probably not doing too hot financially speaking right now.

The first 4 months of the year have been nonstop ups and downs on the economy and economic outlook based on what our government (president) is doing that day. Tarriffs this, tarriffs that. People's lives are expensive. Economists were spelling doom and gloom. Of course people won't be traveling unless they truly need to.

It is said that demand is back, which we are seeing. It is all up to the call on what the numbers are, but I am actually kind of expecting minimal losses/break even, maybe even a slight profit. Scaling back flying while overselling flights is better than flying with open seats in a world where nothing is certain right now. Even though our CEO is saying travel is back with a vengence and the TSA numbers are showing that as well...

But what do I know? I am just a pilot. I don't get paid to worry about this and I don't get paid to figure it out either, my 3 aviation management classes with my degree didn't prepare me to do someone's job who does this for a living and has multiple degrees and years of experience.

Oh, and I do take my family on us sometimes, if it works out scheduling wise....but of course, the preference is a legacy because flights for plentiful and the route network is usually 1 leg anywhere I need to go any day. BUT, that is also because they have been around for 80+ years with multiple, multiple, multiple rounds of consilidations and mergers.