Av8tr1

I think we are basically saying the same thing.

Yes, some bottom feeder would hire the 2 year pilot over the 12 year pilot. You think Delta is going to do that? No Delta or other legacies are going to make a big deal out of the idea that they only hire experienced people. They are going to make sure that people know they will hire the best of the best and to avoid major headlines and safety records they are going to follow through on that. Will some bottom feeder go for the cheap pilots, sure will, it will be the low cost carriers, where its all about money. Well you get what you pay for and the safety record will show it and profits will fall as a result (though Spirit seems to be doing real well). But overall the industry will likely benefit from changing seniority from what it is today.

I think pay should be based on years of experience at an actual 121. We could include 1/2 a year experience for full year of 135. (does not have to be concurrent for those who go from 121 to 135 and back). Try to remove the idea of a massive industry seniority list. It just isn't needed. You only need seniority within the company. And it would only effect bidding not pay. It should be easy to show you worked at a 121 10 years out of a 20 year career, just look at the logbook. Thus our pilot is paid based on a 10 year 121 captain industry standard. That is "fair" for everyone. You can even limit bidding seniority on time with the current company to keep it "fair". So that poor wide body captain who was just furloughed can retain similar pay, to avoid personal bankruptcy, but starts at the bottom of the bidding list. Pay and bid can be two entirely separate things.

In nearly all other industries its based on years of experience. Take for example IT. I spent a good part of my career in IT. Good companies try to hire good people. There are not as many good companies as bad but most people in the industry for a while know who to avoid, Microsoft and amazon being perfect examples, for those who don't know those are examples of the bad ones.

The point being "good" companies know a good experienced employee can leave any time he/she wants. So they tend to treat them better to retain the talent. I at one point had a car leased to me as part of my compensation.

There are downsides to that, IT has enormous abuse of the H1B visa program. And some of the tech workers coming out of that program are abysmal. Certainly not something we want in aviation but there are ways to limit that. We can have laws that limit H1Bs in aviation just as we have limits on airlines ownership by non US entities.

What aviation has now is just a (as someone else alluded to) a giant ponzi scheme. If pilots could leave for greener pastures, airlines would do more for pilot quality of life to keep them around. With the system we have now the company doesn't have to do much to retain talent because they know that talent can't leave without destroying their career. It is the proverbial golden handcuffs.

Just an idea......

Av8tr1

Dude, seriously I get that you dislike corporate pilots but there are other industries for pilots besides the airlines and corporate. Medevac shrimp, Air Attack shrimp, ISR shrimp, Law Enforcement shrimp.........(https://youtu.be/lNGnrO3thMY?t=159)

I would wager its rare that the scenario you describe happens, not zero but not even remotely close to 1/2 the time. Does it happen, yep sure does, but I would wager its very rare.

I don't have the numbers to show who has benefited more than lost and it doesn't really matter but as a Union guy aren't you all about what is best for the pilot group? Don't we support other unions during those actions? Why is this any different? Why not support those who will lose everything in the coming October crash. Give them a way that our poor wide body Captain isn't suddenly making 1st year FO pay because his/her airline didn't survive the Corona Cooties. Nearly every other industry works this way except aviation.

No way this happens before October but its something to think about maybe changing our industry for the better.

John Carr

Agreed, a broad statement without much validity.

As an example, take a "boomer" that was trying to buy a house during some most recent high inflation periods (70's-80's) and the corresponding double digit mortgage rates.

That's when a simple way to calculate a mortgage payment (- taxes/escrows) was take the home price and take off the last 2 zeros +/-.

I'm pretty sure people now can't even fathom a $5000 house payment on a 500,000 home. Or back then, a 60-80K home (as an average) with a $6-800/month payment, etc

GogglesPisano

Where did you get the impression that I dislike corporate pilots? I’m simply illustrating the difference in compensation. One industry uses a seniority system. The other does not.

In regards to your comment about looking out for my union brothers: The union brothers at my airline come first. It’s always been this way. That’s why seniority integration is always a battle. If I agreed that my airline can hire anyone off the street to be a captain that wouldn’t be protecting my union brothers at my airline. It would be doing them a huge disservice costing them hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This type of discussion appears every few years on APC. It’s a useless argument. The seniority system is here to stay. Choose your employer wisely.

galaxy flyer

i don’t know, but my good friend just turned down 310k on a Global. 2Wks on/2 weeks off, paid commute..

METO Guido

Each of us within every gen has cause to balance what we seek for ourselves with those never ending obligations of looking after someone or something else. Won't judge how that maps out for anyone but me. We're so used to finger pointing, an everyday byproduct of frustrated everybody. Industry is going to flow backwards now. At least a year, maybe longer. A) Those who more readily accept a valve collared closed usually spend better hours waiting on a better day. B) You can stand in a pickle barrel and rain it full of the most deserving tears ever shed. Even if you do manage to find some poor empath who says they feel really sad about it, won't change a thing, off the record. https://youtu.be/-H7-3qCnk54

Gone Flying

agree we are thinking similarly. Skywest does something similar to what you describe. you can bring up to 10 years of experience for longevity pay and benefit purposes but start at the bottom of the senority list. when I was a 2nd year FO i flew with a Ca who was junior to me but on year 11 pay because they had 10 years at another regional. while I would like to think you are right about legacy's there is a big difference between $91/hour and $190/hour for a 737FO. maybe if it was a system like what Rickair said where airlines dont get a choice they just hire who comes next on the list, but I doubt any major would give up hiring screening to a Union.

OOfff

longshoremen don’t move between employment for a dozen different ports. They’re farmed out, but to one place with uniform standards and practices. Not at all analogous to one union farming pilots as needed to dozens of airlines with different equipment and SOPs.


as for calling Air Koryo a precedent for anything in America...umm no.

OOfff

Pilots are interchangeable widgets and experience has a diminishing return. The expensive guy with 30 years experience doesn’t markedly improve safety records over the cheaper guy with 10 years experience.

AirBear

My Dad was a Merchant Marine from 1942 until he retired in the mid-1970's. All their work came thru the Union Hall and there was a national contract. To put it in airline terms, if Airline XYZ needs a B737 F/O, they call the National Union and make the request. It's then put out to the pilots on the union roster who can bid on it. With ships, it was done by when you got back from your last cruise. You had X number months of paid vacation, then went back on the list and started moving up to the top.

Back in the 60's my Dad was #2 on the list, the Union called the #1 guy and offered a cruise on a brand new oil tanker. He passed so my Dad grabbed it and starting packing his bags. A few hours later the union hall called back and said the #1 guy changed his mind and took the assignment. That ship set sail with a load of aviation kerosene and was never seen again

I know a national union for pilots will never happen, barring what someone said above about a collapse and nationalization of the industry. But it'd sure be nice.