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rickair7777 12-13-2017 11:32 AM


Originally Posted by badflaps (Post 2482741)
As I remember, PanAm had their strobes on.


Well, there you go, runway environment...

cardiomd 12-13-2017 05:26 PM


Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot (Post 2482459)
Single engine piston in that weather is very high risk imo. If it quits you’re probably dead.

Depends on your definition of "high risk." I would not argue with you, but I do it all the time. I would not do it in an airplane I didn't know like the back of my hand.


Originally Posted by Dolphinflyer (Post 2482660)
From my past Saratoga experience, at medium to light landing weights, I used less runway landing in a 757 than more than a few of the SEL guys. Once it's dialed in with trim and power on the ILS, easier to fly an ILS compared to light aircraft. More stable and less time to screw up due to higher VREF approach speed.

This instance? Wasn't there, don't know what he saw. Some airliner may have blown the threshold area above mins.

There are some people that carry extra speed perhaps, but the book landing for Saratoga from 50' is 1650 ft, ground roll well less than 1000 ft. In a modest headwind I routinely make a 1000 ft turnoff without much braking. I can't imagine it compares at all to a 757 when flown properly.

But yeah I've seen some SEL come in and float halfway down before settling in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjEmkY

80ktsClamp 12-13-2017 07:31 PM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 2482993)
Depends on your definition of "high risk." I would not argue with you, but I do it all the time. I would not do it in an airplane I didn't know like the back of my hand.



There are some people that carry extra speed perhaps, but the book landing for Saratoga from 50' is 1650 ft, ground roll well less than 1000 ft. In a modest headwind I routinely make a 1000 ft turnoff without much braking. I can't imagine it compares at all to a 757 when flown properly.

But yeah I've seen some SEL come in and float halfway down before settling in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjEmkY

You speak the truth... the 757 doesn't hold a prayer to the Saratoga's short field performance if flown on speed.

And like you said... carrying extra speed, sometimes significant extra speed to try to fit into a jet environment, and it will flow for a mile...

DENpilot 12-14-2017 12:36 AM


Originally Posted by METO Guido (Post 2482560)
True. Met this guy a year or two before it happened. Seemed like a nice fella.
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 727-235 N4743 Tampa International Airport, FL (TPA)

I am sorry, but what part of that was risky? That was suicide or complete 'I am God...' captain douche-baggery.

METO Guido 12-14-2017 04:46 AM


Originally Posted by DENpilot (Post 2483102)
I am sorry, but what part of that was risky? That was suicide or complete 'I am God...' captain douche-baggery.

Don't often hear douche-baggery during risk assessment exercises but I would say there's plenty of it to go around in this case. Starting with regulatory loopholes that authorized a Cat 1 approach attempt with RVR values that low. Pressure of no-showing a trip report critically distort the pilot's judgement? Deep doo doo for that, so didn't help with priority balancing anyway. All alone too. May have caught a peak over the ALS and lost orientation crossing the fence, who knows. The purpose of attaching this accident report was not to cast blame on its victim. Just a painful reminder taking it to the dirt, hunting for pavement, may include others in the wager.

skywatch 12-14-2017 08:23 AM


Originally Posted by cardiomd (Post 2482993)
Depends on your definition of "high risk." I would not argue with you, but I do it all the time. I would not do it in an airplane I didn't know like the back of my hand.



There are some people that carry extra speed perhaps, but the book landing for Saratoga from 50' is 1650 ft, ground roll well less than 1000 ft. In a modest headwind I routinely make a 1000 ft turnoff without much braking. I can't imagine it compares at all to a 757 when flown properly.

But yeah I've seen some SEL come in and float halfway down before settling in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjEmkY

"I do it all the time" means that somehow it is less risky? Good that you would not do it in an unfamiliar aircraft, but again? Not throwing shade, promise, but it might be time for a self assessment. These sound too much like the kind of things those god-like, omnipotent pilots say before they kill themselves. Best wishes.

NeverHome 12-14-2017 05:46 PM


Originally Posted by skywatch (Post 2483282)
"I do it all the time" means that somehow it is less risky? Good that you would not do it in an unfamiliar aircraft, but again? Not throwing shade, promise, but it might be time for a self assessment. These sound too much like the kind of things those god-like, omnipotent pilots say before they kill themselves. Best wishes.

Out of pure curiosity, what is it that makes you believe this is risky?

Im making a prediction: Someday a captain will not take a flight because the GPS antenna is defered. Too risky he will say.

So what im getting at here is what we determine to be too much risk. Personally I would not say that single pilot IFR in a single engine aircraft is risky. Challenging yes. Risky, no. That said proficiency is important.

So to some up my thoughts: Do some of that pilot S$!t mav

CoefficientX 12-14-2017 07:58 PM


Originally Posted by NeverHome (Post 2483632)
Personally I would not say that single pilot IFR in a single engine aircraft is risky. Challenging yes. Risky, no. That said proficiency is important.

Here’s the risky part;

Single engine LIFR conditions leave you one option in the event of an engine failure. That option is to set up best glide and hope there isn’t a tree, house, cow, semi truck, bridge etc in your way if/whenyou break out.

Engine out dead stick landing in 0/0 at night 20 miles from the nearest airport isn’t any fun at all. Ask me how I know.

WHACKMASTER 12-14-2017 09:16 PM


Originally Posted by CoefficientX (Post 2483716)
Here’s the risky part;

Single engine LIFR conditions leave you one option in the event of an engine failure. That option is to set up best glide and hope there isn’t a tree, house, cow, semi truck, bridge etc in your way if/whenyou break out.

Engine out dead stick landing in 0/0 at night 20 miles from the nearest airport isn’t any fun at all. Ask me how I know.

Yup. Fook that chit! I was never fully comfortable flying single engine at night or LIFR.

Turbosina 12-14-2017 09:58 PM


Originally Posted by WHACKMASTER (Post 2483747)
Yup. Fook that chit! I was never fully comfortable flying single engine at night or LIFR.

I find that as I got older and gained more experience, my risk tolerance went down. In addition to 121, I still fly a lot of GA (I own my own single-engine piston.) I used to fly that airplane in LIFR all the time. Or across some very tall mountain ranges at night. A few times, across those mountain ranges, IFR at night. Even then, I knew that last one was foolish. But, amazingly enough in 25+ years and 6K hours of GA flying, I never once got iced up, as that was the one thing I avoided religiously.

I'll still fly single-engine pistons in relatively low IFR, and I'll still fly them at night. But at night I'll do everything I can to stay over the flatlands; I no longer fly over the mountains at night. As for the low IFR, I'll only do so in what I'd call 'soft' IFR, i.e. a marine layer that's clear above; I refuse to operate in 'hard' IFR where you're likely to be in IMC from takeoff to touchdown, and in conditions conducive to icing. And, I'll never again fly IMC in the mountains.

That said, even on perfect VFR days, there are times where an engine failure in a single is likely to end very badly. There are plenty of urban airports where if you lose the fan right after takeoff, you're landing on a busy freeway or a crowded neighborhood, none of which is likely to end well. That said, if you take that line of thinking to its logical conclusion, you'd never fly anywhere in a single.

So I just keep my airplane maintained as meticulously as possible (regular maintenance, oil analyses, digital engine trend analysis, borescopes every 100 hours, mag overhauls every 350 instead of 500 hours, vacuum pump replacements every few years, etc etc etc) and I accept the fact that yes, there are situations in which an engine failure has a high risk of injury or fatality. I just do my utmost to minimize the risk. And I think everyone's risk tolerance is understandably different.

And as for engine failures, I did lose one at night IMC (not in my airplane, but in a lousy flight school beater.) Amazingly enough, we happened to be on a LOC/DME approach to minimums at the time. The engine quit right at the FAF. Incredibly, we made it to the airport, just barely....thanks to a whole bunch of excess altitude my instrument student was carrying when we arrived at the FAF. Had she flown the approach at the correct altitudes, we'd have wound up in a shopping mall.

All that said, shooting an approach in a Saratoga at 600 RVR? YGBSM. No thank you.


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