Notices
Hangar Talk For non-aviation-related discussion and aviation threads that don't belong elsewhere

Tool of the day

Old 02-26-2014, 06:00 AM
  #5031  
veut gagner la loterie
 
forgot to bid's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Default

Originally Posted by tsquare
No... what you are displaying is a high level of immaturity. I absolutely hated learning to draw the electrical schematic system on the 727. Hated it. Felt exactly the same way as you are now advocating as a matter of fact. Now... 20 years later, I see there was a purpose in it. You are a classic end user. As long as it works, you're good to go. If there's a problem, somebody (hopefully) has figured out what to do, and will tell you. That is quite sad actually... and someday you might understand. It has nothing to do with going back to the glory days of the 60s or anything like that. It has to do with knowing your airplane. We are losing that part of our professionalism. Reading a checklist might be fine for you, but I prefer knowing more about my craft. An FO can be replaced with a fresh out of a six week "crash course" on reading English if things continue down the road you seem to adore. Fine with me, YOU are gonna have to keep your eye on 'em so that they don't throw down the gear mid flight, or shut down an engine or two.... because , hey, "there's a checklist for restarting the engine.. I saw it in the sim"....
Oh, and I don't have any kids....


I enjoy learning the nuances of an airplane, I do, but I fully understand why that's being dropped.

a) We fly, they fix. Knowing the guts of the jet doesn't help us fly the jet better and knowing the aircraft like a mechanic does you little good if you're not authorized to do maintenance. Write it up, let them deal with it and more importantly track it.

b) If I get a message GEN OFF, I start the APU and run the QRH. The schematic doesn't matter much at that moment. I say stick to the procedures developed by the people who designed it and tested it, that's how I see it. You're not going to save the day because of your personal expert knowledge about the nuances of the aircraft; but your expert proficiency, discipline and experience would save the day.

If I've got a big problem, I do as helicopter pilots do and get it on the ground.

c) My only caveat to b is corporate aviation and international flying. In corporate aviation you don't have the maintenance support of an airline, you're on your own but even then it's not about learning how a molecule flows through the pneumatic system. It's about FAA compliance, warranties, TASKs, 8130s, compounding MEL items, etc. And flying the 767 over the Atlantic, okay, might want to review living with problems for a prolonged period of time.


I will say a pilot should be better exposed to schematics and systems in a better manner then here's a book or a 700 power point slide, but not memorize it. I have thoroughly enjoyed having a simulator program for at home use on the 717. I think money should be invested in that kind of stuff. I also like seeing a computerized schematic of an airplane (like FlightSafety produces for some of their corporate aircraft). Something about seeing it work and manipulating it or throwing in failures really helps you understand the jet better than if you know what the elbow is connected to the T/R and so on.
forgot to bid is offline  
Old 02-26-2014, 06:10 AM
  #5032  
veut gagner la loterie
 
forgot to bid's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Default

Originally Posted by CheapTrick
But learning more than the minimum is what makes and keeps me a professional.
Spot on.

forgot to bid is offline  
Old 02-26-2014, 06:31 AM
  #5033  
The Brown Dot +1
 
scambo1's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Default

Originally Posted by CanoePilot
"Dumbing down" because we don't want to learn pointless trivia about our airplane? We don't think we deserve 300k to fly an airplane because we know what blue juice is made out of. We deserve 300k because in this job we're stuck working crap hours and forced to stay in crappy hotels on weekends and holidays sometimes 5 day in a row per week.
I hope you are trying to play devil's advocate. Because, if you are not, you are a gigantic (expletive) who doesn't begin to understand the difference between being a professional and an entitlement recipient. You have no regard for those who came before or who will follow you...a very scab like mentality.

You really need to examine your motives.
scambo1 is offline  
Old 02-26-2014, 07:07 AM
  #5034  
Gets Weekends Off
 
DelDah Capt's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 515
Default

Originally Posted by forgot to bid
b) If I get a message GEN OFF, I start the APU and run the QRH. The schematic doesn't matter much at that moment.

Tell that to the American 757 Crew a couple of years back who correctly followed the QRH during an electrical malfunction and placed the 'Standby Power' switch ON but didn't have the systems knowledge to realize that that meant the battery was running the show. The Battery (which I think was advertised as good for 45 minutes) lasted an amazing 1:40.....and then systems started rapidly dropping off line. The plane diverted to KORD and went off the side of the runway.

I'm not saying we need to know how to build the airplane, but the level of systems knowledge we now get is pathetic. It's going to bite us in the butt one day.
DelDah Capt is offline  
Old 02-26-2014, 07:09 AM
  #5035  
Gets Weekends Off
 
CanoePilot's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,166
Default

Originally Posted by DelDah Capt
Tell that to the American 757 Crew a couple of years back who correctly followed the QRH during an electrical malfunction and placed the 'Standby Power' switch ON but didn't have the systems knowledge to realize that that meant the battery was running the show. The Battery (which I think was advertised as good for 45 minutes) lasted an amazing 1:40.....and then systems started rapidly dropping off line. The plane diverted to KORD and went off the side of the runway.

I'm not saying we need to know how to build the airplane, but the level of systems knowledge we now get is pathetic. It's going to bite us in the butt one day.
There is nothing that can be done about that. It's up to boeing and airbus to design better a/c.
CanoePilot is offline  
Old 02-26-2014, 07:14 AM
  #5036  
Gets Weekends Off
 
DelDah Capt's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 515
Default

Originally Posted by CanoePilot
There is nothing that can be done about that. It's up to boeing and airbus to design better a/c.
You're right, they should build 'em so well that they can eliminate the Pilot altogether. Then we'd never have to know anything.
DelDah Capt is offline  
Old 02-26-2014, 07:43 AM
  #5037  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Skyone's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: B777 Left
Posts: 736
Default

A basic CRM question for you CP. Does knowledge affect behavior? If you answer in the affirmative, where do you as a "professional" draw the line. How much knowledge is enough? When does one stop learning? It appears you are using the ole military adage...if the minimum wasn't good enough, there wouldn't be a minimum. IMHO, if the majority of your ilk have the same attitude as you, the profession of "pilot" is in danger. You will paid and respected accordingly.

This is a basic issue with the Y generation. Because information is so readily available with ipads, smart phones, tablets etc., there seems to be a reduction in internal knowledge and internal locus. You allow the world and your environment to control you, not vice versa. Senior surgeons are seeing this, as well, in the operating theater. The reliance on formulatic solutions and not having the ability to react out of the box.

You will mostly react to problems with "by the book". But there will be times when you "use the book" and others "what book". Black swan events do happen and one's knowledge of systems, operating areas, rules and regulations etc., will enable the outcome to be satisfactory.

So in effect, knowledge DOES affect behavior. Perhaps CanoePilot should change his moniker to CanoeOperator. I would not affix the title of "pilot" to him. His attitude is an affront to the profession. I would like to nominate him as runnerup to said professor of aviation for the title TFI. Seconds?
Skyone is offline  
Old 02-26-2014, 07:52 AM
  #5038  
Gets Weekends Off
 
captjns's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,958
Default

Originally Posted by CanoePilot
There is nothing that can be done about that. It's up to boeing and airbus to design better a/c.
Negative! It's the crew's responsibility to know how every system works on their aircraft. It's there responsibility to understand the significance and effect by moving a switch be it under normal or non-normal situations.
captjns is offline  
Old 02-26-2014, 07:56 AM
  #5039  
Junior Senior
 
LNL76's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Whiskey Papa
Posts: 2,851
Default

If this yutz isn't yanking our chain, I want to know what airline he works for so I can avoid it at all costs! Oy vey.
LNL76 is offline  
Old 02-26-2014, 08:04 AM
  #5040  
Gets Weekends Off
 
DelDah Capt's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 515
Default

Originally Posted by LNL76
If this yutz isn't yanking our chain, I want to know what airline he works for so I can avoid it at all costs! Oy vey.
I'm pretty sure he is just trolling for effect at this point.....

However, believe me there are Pilots who feel that we shouldn't have to know any systems. We shouldn't have to get a four year degree. We shouldn't have to engage the PAX during IROPs. We shouldn't have to manage the crew and maybe coordinate with catering for the F/As......

We should just sit high up in the shiny cockpit, wear leather jackets, earn $300k a year and ooze awesomeness.
DelDah Capt is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Elvis90
Military
2
11-11-2010 09:25 AM
meloveboeing
Regional
5
10-02-2010 07:47 AM
kc135driver
United
119
08-24-2010 08:30 AM
exerauflyboy5
Flight Schools and Training
15
02-18-2009 08:29 PM
Busdriver
JetBlue
70
01-16-2006 10:32 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices