cardiomd

But a highly trained "idiot" as many participants take great pains to point out!

It is a typical flawed lobby-fueled government program based on faulty logic, so the completely voluntary participants hold culpability. But I know YOU'D never leave your gun anywhere, say again. As the young people say, "play stupid games..."

I believe it is TOTD, TOTD.

cardiomd

No, they are the same topic. Nobody is perfect, and that is the point. We set ourselves up for failure by such an idiotic program. I consider myself very reliable, but I don't want a gun in a secured area, because of the things that can go wrong while I have other stuff to do and pay attention to. Similarly, I consider myself reliable, and I still use a checklist for many operations of flight. Humans can become distracted; dismissing the guy as "an idiot" doesn't solve the issue.

FFDO program defies common sense and a realistic assessment of the risks of the program against possible benefits. This kind of incident has happened before, and will happen again. Next time the gun may not be found by a benign janitor, which is what a lot of us have been saying for a long time.

SluggoC17

Yawn.

Rolf

Cardio,
I know this is a difficult to understand, but a gun is a tool. So are fire extinguishers, crash axes and O2 masks. In my life I've had to use 2 of the 4 and I can't tell you how glad I was to have them available.
Math time! If agency x loses 10 guns per 100000 and agency y loses 5/100000, which agency is more "professional"?
No guns inside the secure area is what you want? Well, let's built a Maginot line again, worked great last time, right?
Can't believe I'm helping ruin a great thread like this.

Dolphinflyer

I don't want a gun in a secured area either. We are in total agreement. An example of this policy would be prison guards working amongst inmates.

The problem is the area aboard an aircraft or past security at any US airport cannot be considered "secure" in a sense to support your political objection to the FFDO program. It's just one of many statements you have made that offer nothing to the discussion of the program other than you don't like it.

Another problem is your insults towards aviators for whatever reason, have volunteered a significant amount of their personal time and some expense in order to provide another layer of security against a continuing threat. Most employed commercial pilots here could contribute to a 100 page thread on the shortcomings of aviation security, but can't and won't due to obvious security threats that exist today. Yet you still try to bait everyone with your insults.

As for my opinion? Like anything, the FFDO program isn't perfect. Probably all FFDO's understand a weapon isn't some lightsabre or a Darth Vader throat clutch that will stop the world in it's tracks. I am also not going to discuss these limitations with someone that has no training in the program, is not even cleared to work with someone in the program, has ZERO knowledge of any airline operation procedures and policies of the program or any other armed issue with commercial flying.

I've listened to your opinions, but have learned nothing. I've also listened to others with close involvement the program and weigh their opinion far more than yours. This group has included current and former FBI Agents including Hostage Rescue Team member, former military officers including Generals, former members of the Secret Service including Presidential and sniper team details, numerous other active and retired armed Federal Officers from various agencies and even a former Delta Force sniper.

Theses are people I've come into contact with that know the limitations but support the program.

cactusmike

Crikey, this is sounding like Einstein's definition of insanity. Please. Stop. Feeding. The. Trolls.

Maingear

My Tool of the Day nomination is people who come around posting in the airline pilot forums who are NOT airline pilots, then argue with them on top of it!

I don't go into doctor forums and argue with them.

It's the equivalent of showing up to a private party uninvited and getting into it with the guests.

Dolphinflyer

I confess, I'm guilty.
As a penance, on my next trip, I'll do three r/t's through the public TSA line along with 5 Hail Mary's.

Firsttimeflyer

Cardio have you ever thought the FFFO program and FAMs are a useful deterrent to would be terrorists without even having to shoot someone?
You call these guys stupid for making mistakes yet they are good enough to fly you or your family members around in a pressurized metal tube with big jet engines on it and thousands of gallons of jet fuel?
You admit you make mistakes, so all of us should dog on you for any screw ups a Cardio doctor makes and lump you into that same category? Speaking of which you must be a crappy doc because the ones I know have king airs or pressurized singles...

I know I'm speaking to a brick wall and your pal packrat will have his head up your butt as well with an incoming comment I'm sure, but just take a step back from your anti gun infested mind and realize that you don't have to shoot people to be a deterrent. Just as the act of a cop driving behind you makes you straighten up a little, the program is effective.

Packrat

Its certainly not a deterrent as currently applied. It would only be a REAL deterrent if EVERY pilot was an FFDO. The "cop" straw man is just that.

A real terrorist will just roll the dice considering the number of FFDOs to the general pilot group.

But that's always Barney's excuse. If the Captain had been an FFDO on the German Wings Airbus would the outcome have been any different?

Virtually ALL terrorist threats have originated on International flights. The whole FFDO programs is a knee jerk reaction to 9/11 capitalized on by a bunch of gun nuts who thought they were going to get unlimited concealed carry authorization just because they were airline pilots.