Is sexism/racism still an issue?
02-16-2017, 04:32 PM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,899
Originally Posted by robthree
Hypothesis: Race and gender have no bearing on ability to fly an airplane.
Expectation: Statistics will indicate that race and gender of airline pilots will not be statistically different from the general US population.
US Census demographics indicate that roughly 72% of the population is "White", 13% "Black", and 15% other. 49.3% is male, and 50.7% female.
If race and gender play no role in who becomes an airline pilot, we would expect 35% of the seats to be filled by white males, 37% by white females, 6% black males, 7% black females, 7% other males, and 8% other females.
Using the UA 2016 newhire data poor pilot posted, white males are over represented by more than double, black males are almost proportionally represented, other races are underrepresented by half, and only 1/6th of the expected number of women are being hired.
Of course this data does not really answer the hypothesis that race and gender do not predict flying ability, but given the enormous gulf between the general population and who is being hired, it is obvious that either gender does predict flying ability, or there are structural issues that deter women from beginning and completing flight training and continuing in the career to the point where they will be hired by a major airline.
"Structural issues" is "sexism" - both the overt kind amply demonstrated in this thread i.e. "all female pilots are bad pilots", and the covert sexism of expected or encouraged gender roles i.e. "girls play with dolls, not airplanes". Or perhaps a general impression that the flight deck is an environment where chauvinism and the hostile work environment that comes with it is still tolerated deters a significant number of women from joining the profession in the first place.
Anecdotally, my experience in the cockpit is similar. I can only recall one incident in my entire career where a pilot said something overtly racist. But denigrating women, as pilots or just generally, is more common than complaining about management, union reps, crew meals, layover hotels, pairings, AND politics, combined.
Expectation: Statistics will indicate that race and gender of airline pilots will not be statistically different from the general US population.
US Census demographics indicate that roughly 72% of the population is "White", 13% "Black", and 15% other. 49.3% is male, and 50.7% female.
If race and gender play no role in who becomes an airline pilot, we would expect 35% of the seats to be filled by white males, 37% by white females, 6% black males, 7% black females, 7% other males, and 8% other females.
Using the UA 2016 newhire data poor pilot posted, white males are over represented by more than double, black males are almost proportionally represented, other races are underrepresented by half, and only 1/6th of the expected number of women are being hired.
Of course this data does not really answer the hypothesis that race and gender do not predict flying ability, but given the enormous gulf between the general population and who is being hired, it is obvious that either gender does predict flying ability, or there are structural issues that deter women from beginning and completing flight training and continuing in the career to the point where they will be hired by a major airline.
"Structural issues" is "sexism" - both the overt kind amply demonstrated in this thread i.e. "all female pilots are bad pilots", and the covert sexism of expected or encouraged gender roles i.e. "girls play with dolls, not airplanes". Or perhaps a general impression that the flight deck is an environment where chauvinism and the hostile work environment that comes with it is still tolerated deters a significant number of women from joining the profession in the first place.
Anecdotally, my experience in the cockpit is similar. I can only recall one incident in my entire career where a pilot said something overtly racist. But denigrating women, as pilots or just generally, is more common than complaining about management, union reps, crew meals, layover hotels, pairings, AND politics, combined.
Yet those types of comments don't meet with much resistance, and instead momentum gains when guys get up in arms over the idea that they're being discriminated against because the relative % of minority applicants accepted for a job than your average white male that makes up 90%+ of the pilot population.
It seems like prejudice is still an issue.
02-16-2017, 05:31 PM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Position: On the hotel shuttle
Posts: 5,815
Originally Posted by robthree
Hypothesis: Race and gender have no bearing on ability to fly an airplane.
Expectation: Statistics will indicate that race and gender of airline pilots will not be statistically different from the general US population.
US Census demographics indicate that roughly 72% of the population is "White", 13% "Black", and 15% other. 49.3% is male, and 50.7% female.
If race and gender play no role in who becomes an airline pilot, we would expect 35% of the seats to be filled by white males, 37% by white females, 6% black males, 7% black females, 7% other males, and 8% other females.
Using the UA 2016 newhire data poor pilot posted, white males are over represented by more than double, black males are almost proportionally represented, other races are underrepresented by half, and only 1/6th of the expected number of women are being hired.
Of course this data does not really answer the hypothesis that race and gender do not predict flying ability, but given the enormous gulf between the general population and who is being hired, it is obvious that either gender does predict flying ability, or there are structural issues that deter women from beginning and completing flight training and continuing in the career to the point where they will be hired by a major airline.
"Structural issues" is "sexism" - both the overt kind amply demonstrated in this thread i.e. "all female pilots are bad pilots", and the covert sexism of expected or encouraged gender roles i.e. "girls play with dolls, not airplanes". Or perhaps a general impression that the flight deck is an environment where chauvinism and the hostile work environment that comes with it is still tolerated deters a significant number of women from joining the profession in the first place.
Anecdotally, my experience in the cockpit is similar. I can only recall one incident in my entire career where a pilot said something overtly racist. But denigrating women, as pilots or just generally, is more common than complaining about management, union reps, crew meals, layover hotels, pairings, AND politics, combined.
Expectation: Statistics will indicate that race and gender of airline pilots will not be statistically different from the general US population.
US Census demographics indicate that roughly 72% of the population is "White", 13% "Black", and 15% other. 49.3% is male, and 50.7% female.
If race and gender play no role in who becomes an airline pilot, we would expect 35% of the seats to be filled by white males, 37% by white females, 6% black males, 7% black females, 7% other males, and 8% other females.
Using the UA 2016 newhire data poor pilot posted, white males are over represented by more than double, black males are almost proportionally represented, other races are underrepresented by half, and only 1/6th of the expected number of women are being hired.
Of course this data does not really answer the hypothesis that race and gender do not predict flying ability, but given the enormous gulf between the general population and who is being hired, it is obvious that either gender does predict flying ability, or there are structural issues that deter women from beginning and completing flight training and continuing in the career to the point where they will be hired by a major airline.
"Structural issues" is "sexism" - both the overt kind amply demonstrated in this thread i.e. "all female pilots are bad pilots", and the covert sexism of expected or encouraged gender roles i.e. "girls play with dolls, not airplanes". Or perhaps a general impression that the flight deck is an environment where chauvinism and the hostile work environment that comes with it is still tolerated deters a significant number of women from joining the profession in the first place.
Anecdotally, my experience in the cockpit is similar. I can only recall one incident in my entire career where a pilot said something overtly racist. But denigrating women, as pilots or just generally, is more common than complaining about management, union reps, crew meals, layover hotels, pairings, AND politics, combined.
I'd be interested to see the following statistic: Take a snapshot of 100 people who start professional flight training on day 1. 8 years later what percentage of women in that class will have secured position at a premier airline vs the percentage of men who started on the same day. That will answer the question that is pregnant within this whole thread.
Last edited by GogglesPisano; 02-16-2017 at 05:41 PM.
02-16-2017, 05:49 PM
#64
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by robthree
Hypothesis: Gender has no bearing on ability to _________________.
Expectation: Statistics will indicate that gender of _________________s will not be statistically different from the general US population.
US Census demographics indicate that roughly 49.3% of the population is male, and 50.7% female.
If race and gender play no role in who becomes a/an _________________, we would expect 49.3% of the positions to be filled by males and 50.7% by females.
According to the United States Department of Labor, the leading Occupations of Employed Women for 2009 are secretaries, nurses, teachers and cashiers, in that order.
96.8% of secretaries and administrative assistants are women.
92% of registered nurses are women
81.9% of elementary and middle school teachers are women
74.4% of cashiers are women
88.5% of nursing, psychiatric and home health aides are women
71.6% of waiters and waitresses are women
89.9% of maids and housekeeping cleaners are women
67.9% of customer service representatives are women
95.1% of child-care workers are women
92.3% of bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing clerks are women
95.1% of receptionists and information clerks are women
71.3% of first-line supervisors/managers of office and administrative support are women
91.6% of teacher assistants are women
82% of office clerks, general, are women
85.2% of personal and home care aides are women
Where is the outrage?
.
02-17-2017, 07:32 AM
#67
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 87
Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
Have you ever considered the fact that women may not be as interested in this career as men are? Women are over-represented in teaching, nursing and (judging by law school demographics) they'll soon be over-represented in the legal profession. Is this institutional sexism? Should we promote these careers to males? She would engineer the system so that men have a higher success rate at interviews?
I'd be interested to see the following statistic: Take a snapshot of 100 people who start professional flight training on day 1. 8 years later what percentage of women in that class will have secured position at a premier airline vs the percentage of men who started on the same day. That will answer the question that is pregnant within this whole thread.
I'd be interested to see the following statistic: Take a snapshot of 100 people who start professional flight training on day 1. 8 years later what percentage of women in that class will have secured position at a premier airline vs the percentage of men who started on the same day. That will answer the question that is pregnant within this whole thread.
02-17-2017, 09:01 AM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,383
Originally Posted by popcorn
REALLY? Ya think that might have something to do with it? That's a huge reason why women have a glass ceiling. You knock your wife/girlfriend up, then keep working and going to the bar with your buddies. She ends up taking 5 years off work. Don't be a pig.
What? The guy used the word "pregnant." You freak! He's not allowed to use that term?
Last edited by Learflyer; 02-17-2017 at 09:13 AM.
02-17-2017, 09:16 AM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,584
Originally Posted by TonyC
[adapted, liberties taken]
According to the United States Department of Labor, the leading Occupations of Employed Women for 2009 are secretaries, nurses, teachers and cashiers, in that order.
96.8% of secretaries and administrative assistants are women.
92% of registered nurses are women
81.9% of elementary and middle school teachers are women
74.4% of cashiers are women
88.5% of nursing, psychiatric and home health aides are women
71.6% of waiters and waitresses are women
89.9% of maids and housekeeping cleaners are women
67.9% of customer service representatives are women
95.1% of child-care workers are women
92.3% of bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing clerks are women
95.1% of receptionists and information clerks are women
71.3% of first-line supervisors/managers of office and administrative support are women
91.6% of teacher assistants are women
82% of office clerks, general, are women
85.2% of personal and home care aides are women
Where is the outrage?
.
According to the United States Department of Labor, the leading Occupations of Employed Women for 2009 are secretaries, nurses, teachers and cashiers, in that order.
96.8% of secretaries and administrative assistants are women.
92% of registered nurses are women
81.9% of elementary and middle school teachers are women
74.4% of cashiers are women
88.5% of nursing, psychiatric and home health aides are women
71.6% of waiters and waitresses are women
89.9% of maids and housekeeping cleaners are women
67.9% of customer service representatives are women
95.1% of child-care workers are women
92.3% of bookkeeping, accounting, and auditing clerks are women
95.1% of receptionists and information clerks are women
71.3% of first-line supervisors/managers of office and administrative support are women
91.6% of teacher assistants are women
82% of office clerks, general, are women
85.2% of personal and home care aides are women
Where is the outrage?
.
02-17-2017, 09:20 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,584
Originally Posted by popcorn
REALLY? Ya think that might have something to do with it? That's a huge reason why women have a glass ceiling. You knock your wife/girlfriend up, then keep working and going to the bar with your buddies. She ends up taking 5 years off work. Don't be a pig.
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