AIP.
05-22-2018 | 02:37 PM
#401
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 83
From: P-3C
I don’t know? I think there are hard-lined NO guys who weren’t going to vote YES for Deta +10% and profit sharing.
If we go back to the table with a NO vote I think you’re looking at 6 months of back and forths that culminates in maybe $60mil total incentive pay out and maybe a couple more compensation gains here and there. But at what expense? Is the NC now going to be overly cautious in what they agree too? Do they give back on $86/1yr pay? Maybe to like $65? I think that the AIP, in purely a pay rate comparison, allows the junior side (0-60% seniority) of the group the majority of the gains. This is a good thing for sure. That’s where I think the NC would be forced to give back in order to see gains to the package that would primarily benefit the senior group.
Again, this is the cumbyah airline where let it not be forgotten the senior guys here left blood, sweat and tears for this place to survive. They did it because the senior pilot groups at UsAir ABX AA TWA DAL betrayed them. Don’t let this mentality drive the greed at the renegotiating side. If there are glaring problems in the language of the presented TA, then you can make an argument. But right now the conversation is about “the knowns.” ($)
Vote YES
-Bubs
If we go back to the table with a NO vote I think you’re looking at 6 months of back and forths that culminates in maybe $60mil total incentive pay out and maybe a couple more compensation gains here and there. But at what expense? Is the NC now going to be overly cautious in what they agree too? Do they give back on $86/1yr pay? Maybe to like $65? I think that the AIP, in purely a pay rate comparison, allows the junior side (0-60% seniority) of the group the majority of the gains. This is a good thing for sure. That’s where I think the NC would be forced to give back in order to see gains to the package that would primarily benefit the senior group.
Again, this is the cumbyah airline where let it not be forgotten the senior guys here left blood, sweat and tears for this place to survive. They did it because the senior pilot groups at UsAir ABX AA TWA DAL betrayed them. Don’t let this mentality drive the greed at the renegotiating side. If there are glaring problems in the language of the presented TA, then you can make an argument. But right now the conversation is about “the knowns.” ($)
Vote YES
-Bubs
05-22-2018 | 02:53 PM
#402
Covfefe
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Likes: 0
I don’t know? I think there are hard-lined NO guys who weren’t going to vote YES for Deta +10% and profit sharing.
If we go back to the table with a NO vote I think you’re looking at 6 months of back and forths that culminates in maybe $60mil total incentive pay out and maybe a couple more compensation gains here and there. But at what expense? Is the NC now going to be overly cautious in what they agree too? Do they give back on $86/1yr pay? Maybe to like $65? I think that the AIP, in purely a pay rate comparison, allows the junior side (0-60% seniority) of the group the majority of the gains. This is a good thing for sure. That’s where I think the NC would be forced to give back in order to see gains to the package that would primarily benefit the senior group.
Again, this is the cumbyah airline where let it not be forgotten the senior guys here left blood, sweat and tears for this place to survive. They did it because the senior pilot groups at UsAir ABX AA TWA DAL betrayed them. Don’t let this mentality drive the greed at the renegotiating side. If there are glaring problems in the language of the presented TA, then you can make an argument. But right now the conversation is about “the knowns.” ($)
Vote YES
-Bubs
If we go back to the table with a NO vote I think you’re looking at 6 months of back and forths that culminates in maybe $60mil total incentive pay out and maybe a couple more compensation gains here and there. But at what expense? Is the NC now going to be overly cautious in what they agree too? Do they give back on $86/1yr pay? Maybe to like $65? I think that the AIP, in purely a pay rate comparison, allows the junior side (0-60% seniority) of the group the majority of the gains. This is a good thing for sure. That’s where I think the NC would be forced to give back in order to see gains to the package that would primarily benefit the senior group.
Again, this is the cumbyah airline where let it not be forgotten the senior guys here left blood, sweat and tears for this place to survive. They did it because the senior pilot groups at UsAir ABX AA TWA DAL betrayed them. Don’t let this mentality drive the greed at the renegotiating side. If there are glaring problems in the language of the presented TA, then you can make an argument. But right now the conversation is about “the knowns.” ($)
Vote YES
-Bubs
05-22-2018 | 02:58 PM
#403
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
Serious question- Whats the absolute best we would do after a no vote and give me a time frame for how long you'd be willing to wait for said improvements. (AIP 2)
Be realistic and keep resentment out of it for the sake of a clear head.
05-22-2018 | 03:11 PM
#404
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
I don’t know? I think there are hard-lined NO guys who weren’t going to vote YES for Deta +10% and profit sharing.
If we go back to the table with a NO vote I think you’re looking at 6 months of back and forths that culminates in maybe $60mil total incentive pay out and maybe a couple more compensation gains here and there. But at what expense? Is the NC now going to be overly cautious in what they agree too? Do they give back on $86/1yr pay? Maybe to like $65? I think that the AIP, in purely a pay rate comparison, allows the junior side (0-60% seniority) of the group the majority of the gains. This is a good thing for sure. That’s where I think the NC would be forced to give back in order to see gains to the package that would primarily benefit the senior group.
Again, this is the cumbyah airline where let it not be forgotten the senior guys here left blood, sweat and tears for this place to survive. They did it because the senior pilot groups at UsAir ABX AA TWA DAL betrayed them. Don’t let this mentality drive the greed at the renegotiating side. If there are glaring problems in the language of the presented TA, then you can make an argument. But right now the conversation is about “the knowns.” ($)
Vote YES
-Bubs
If we go back to the table with a NO vote I think you’re looking at 6 months of back and forths that culminates in maybe $60mil total incentive pay out and maybe a couple more compensation gains here and there. But at what expense? Is the NC now going to be overly cautious in what they agree too? Do they give back on $86/1yr pay? Maybe to like $65? I think that the AIP, in purely a pay rate comparison, allows the junior side (0-60% seniority) of the group the majority of the gains. This is a good thing for sure. That’s where I think the NC would be forced to give back in order to see gains to the package that would primarily benefit the senior group.
Again, this is the cumbyah airline where let it not be forgotten the senior guys here left blood, sweat and tears for this place to survive. They did it because the senior pilot groups at UsAir ABX AA TWA DAL betrayed them. Don’t let this mentality drive the greed at the renegotiating side. If there are glaring problems in the language of the presented TA, then you can make an argument. But right now the conversation is about “the knowns.” ($)
Vote YES
-Bubs
Q, POG and a few other “NO” sayers are about 1% of the company.
They’re negative, naive, and sarcastic responses are now just a waste of their time, since they don’t have any realistic facts to back up what they say.
Based on the points the MEC put out, and the pay rates, it’s obviously something everyone should look fwd to reading page by page.
We can now make a respectable living with our peers. Making 130-180 thousand a year as a minimal working FO, or 220/250 a year as a CA is pretty respectable. Can it be better...sure, but at what expense.
I will continue to look at the positive. I really believe this was the best the MEC could negotiate. If you think you can negotiate better than the 12 reps did, then maybe think about running as the next member, or seriously think about applying to a company with a better contract.
When we have wide bodies, and fly to over 200 cities more than once a day, then maybe we’ll get a legacy contract.
I came to JB because it went ALPA, if they stayed non union, I never would have applied. The next contract will hopefully be better, but right now, I think after reading the whole TA, we will be right where our peers are, and better.
In case you didn’t know, our peers are SWA, AK and HA, not AA, Delta, and UAL. Sorry, but the truth hurts!
05-22-2018 | 03:42 PM
#405
Banned
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 0
I didn't know that. Enlighten me. What is the legal framework for what you are saying? Otherwise, you're just working for BJ's negotiating or PR team.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-22-2018 | 03:45 PM
#406
Banned
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 0
Not as much as you think BN. I respect your pov, but this Aip is known, pending final language-the result of voting NO is not.
Serious question- Whats the absolute best we would do after a no vote and give me a time frame for how long you'd be willing to wait for said improvements. (AIP 2)
Be realistic and keep resentment out of it for the sake of a clear head.
Serious question- Whats the absolute best we would do after a no vote and give me a time frame for how long you'd be willing to wait for said improvements. (AIP 2)
Be realistic and keep resentment out of it for the sake of a clear head.
I think it's important to point out that no one knew how long it would take to get an AIP. Many people (me) thought it took too long. Many people were shocked we even got an AIP. Any timeline is beyond useful speculation. Unless you're on BJ's management team, how in the world could you possibly make an intelligent decision based on guesses about a timeline?
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-22-2018 | 03:46 PM
#407
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
I usually don’t agree with P-3 guys, but I agree with you.
Q, POG and a few other “NO” sayers are about 1% of the company.
They’re negative, naive, and sarcastic responses are now just a waste of their time, since they don’t have any realistic facts to back up what they say.
Based on the points the MEC put out, and the pay rates, it’s obviously something everyone should look fwd to reading page by page.
We can now make a respectable living with our peers. Making 130-180 thousand a year as a minimal working FO, or 220/250 a year as a CA is pretty respectable. Can it be better...sure, but at what expense.
I will continue to look at the positive. I really believe this was the best the MEC could negotiate. If you think you can negotiate better than the 12 reps did, then maybe think about running as the next member, or seriously think about applying to a company with a better contract.
When we have wide bodies, and fly to over 200 cities more than once a day, then maybe we’ll get a legacy contract.
I came to JB because it went ALPA, if they stayed non union, I never would have applied. The next contract will hopefully be better, but right now, I think after reading the whole TA, we will be right where our peers are, and better.
In case you didn’t know, our peers are SWA, AK and HA, not AA, Delta, and UAL. Sorry, but the truth hurts!
Q, POG and a few other “NO” sayers are about 1% of the company.
They’re negative, naive, and sarcastic responses are now just a waste of their time, since they don’t have any realistic facts to back up what they say.
Based on the points the MEC put out, and the pay rates, it’s obviously something everyone should look fwd to reading page by page.
We can now make a respectable living with our peers. Making 130-180 thousand a year as a minimal working FO, or 220/250 a year as a CA is pretty respectable. Can it be better...sure, but at what expense.
I will continue to look at the positive. I really believe this was the best the MEC could negotiate. If you think you can negotiate better than the 12 reps did, then maybe think about running as the next member, or seriously think about applying to a company with a better contract.
When we have wide bodies, and fly to over 200 cities more than once a day, then maybe we’ll get a legacy contract.
I came to JB because it went ALPA, if they stayed non union, I never would have applied. The next contract will hopefully be better, but right now, I think after reading the whole TA, we will be right where our peers are, and better.
In case you didn’t know, our peers are SWA, AK and HA, not AA, Delta, and UAL. Sorry, but the truth hurts!
The process does not allow for reparations for the 17 years they were too shortsighted to vote ALPA in.
They voted against ALPA twice right? TWICE
05-22-2018 | 03:48 PM
#408
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
I think it's important to point out that no one knew how long it would take to get an AIP. Many people (me) thought it took too long. Many people were shocked we even got an AIP. Any timeline is beyond useful speculation. Unless you're on BJ's management team, how in the world could you possibly make an intelligent decision based on guesses about a timeline?
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
Btw, I was asking how long he'd be WILLING to wait. I capped it for you this time.
05-22-2018 | 03:49 PM
#409
Banned
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 0
I don’t know? I think there are hard-lined NO guys who weren’t going to vote YES for Deta +10% and profit sharing.
If we go back to the table with a NO vote I think you’re looking at 6 months of back and forths that culminates in maybe $60mil total incentive pay out and maybe a couple more compensation gains here and there. But at what expense? Is the NC now going to be overly cautious in what they agree too? Do they give back on $86/1yr pay? Maybe to like $65? I think that the AIP, in purely a pay rate comparison, allows the junior side (0-60% seniority) of the group the majority of the gains. This is a good thing for sure. That’s where I think the NC would be forced to give back in order to see gains to the package that would primarily benefit the senior group.
Again, this is the cumbyah airline where let it not be forgotten the senior guys here left blood, sweat and tears for this place to survive. They did it because the senior pilot groups at UsAir ABX AA TWA DAL betrayed them. Don’t let this mentality drive the greed at the renegotiating side. If there are glaring problems in the language of the presented TA, then you can make an argument. But right now the conversation is about “the knowns.” ($)
Vote YES
-Bubs
If we go back to the table with a NO vote I think you’re looking at 6 months of back and forths that culminates in maybe $60mil total incentive pay out and maybe a couple more compensation gains here and there. But at what expense? Is the NC now going to be overly cautious in what they agree too? Do they give back on $86/1yr pay? Maybe to like $65? I think that the AIP, in purely a pay rate comparison, allows the junior side (0-60% seniority) of the group the majority of the gains. This is a good thing for sure. That’s where I think the NC would be forced to give back in order to see gains to the package that would primarily benefit the senior group.
Again, this is the cumbyah airline where let it not be forgotten the senior guys here left blood, sweat and tears for this place to survive. They did it because the senior pilot groups at UsAir ABX AA TWA DAL betrayed them. Don’t let this mentality drive the greed at the renegotiating side. If there are glaring problems in the language of the presented TA, then you can make an argument. But right now the conversation is about “the knowns.” ($)
Vote YES
-Bubs
What a low bar you have set for accepting. You haven't even read the final language, and the AIP bullet points leave A LOT to be desired from.
Isn't the safer, conservative, more responsible option to Say NO until the contract language has proven itself worthy? Why raise the white flag so quickly?
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-22-2018 | 03:51 PM
#410
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
Likes: 0
What a low bar you have set for accepting. You haven't even read the final language, and the AIP bullet points leave A LOT to be desired from.
Isn't the safer, conservative, more responsible option to Say NO until the contract language has proven itself worthy? Why raise the white flag so quickly?
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
Isn't the safer, conservative, more responsible option to Say NO until the contract language has proven itself worthy? Why raise the white flag so quickly?
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
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