AIP.
05-22-2018, 04:00 PM
#411
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Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by Bozo the pilot
Its more responsible to WAIT...READ...DECIDE...VOTE.
Well, I read the AIP.
I'm hoping the contract language will contain some kind of miracle(s).
Then I will vote.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-22-2018, 04:02 PM
#412
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
Originally Posted by queue
Well, I read the AIP.
I'm hoping the contract language will contain some kind of miracle(s).
Then I will vote.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
I'm hoping the contract language will contain some kind of miracle(s).
Then I will vote.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-22-2018, 04:04 PM
#413
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,517
Originally Posted by Bozo the pilot
Its more responsible to WAIT...READ...DECIDE...VOTE.
I’m waiting for the language. It is supposed to have southwest style pairing construction. Work your ass off for a few days and go home for more.
If that translates into an extra 2 days a month at home on top of the vacation allocation/distribution then this is a big win in my eyes.
Time off is what I value. The guys who want to make $$ can work the same number of days for more credit now. Another raise.
It was smart by the NC to go after vacation fixes, work rules and pairing construction this go around. It’s harder to get those on a second go around than it is to get rates increased.
Of course that all depends on what the language actually says. If the language doesn’t live up to what’s promised then its a no vote.
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05-22-2018, 04:13 PM
#414
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Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by Bozo the pilot
Exactly- You never know how long an AIP#2 would take- Thanks for making my point Q. 
Btw, I was asking how long he'd be WILLING to wait. I capped it for you this time.
Btw, I was asking how long he'd be WILLING to wait. I capped it for you this time.
It's *the* point... it cuts both ways. What we do know is that BJ wants this done quickly. That means there's at least a reason to believe that a second go around would take far less time. Conditions were different in the beginning... we had no leverage. Now we do because of externalities that BJ can't control.
If we say NO, we can always just accept the first table scraps we were offered on a timeline of our choosing because we already KNOW that BJ is willing to agree to them. If in round-two negotiations, we get concrete knowledge that things are going sour (e.g. Norweigan can now fly domestic routes), we could always revert back to AIP 1 quickly. The only question now is, how long is BJ willing to let this drag on? So unless the final language has miraculous verbiage, we really have everything to GAIN by turning it down.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-22-2018, 04:17 PM
#415
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Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by Bozo the pilot
Oh okay so youre undecided? You posts read a bit differently than that.
Yes and No.
I am undecided because the final language is not out. However, unlike many others here, I am not saying YES merely based on the AIP. I'm not even allowing that to enter my calculus. I've signed many contracts in my lifetime and this one is no different. In order for me to agree to a contract, it must be worthy. Therefore, it's a SOLID "NO" vote *until* the final language contains miracles not present in the AIP.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-22-2018, 04:22 PM
#416
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: B6
Posts: 1,047
.........................
Originally Posted by queue
Yes and No.
I am undecided because the final language is not out. However, unlike many others here, I am not saying YES merely based on the AIP. I'm not even allowing that to enter my calculus. I've signed many contracts in my lifetime and this one is no different. In order for me to agree to a contract, it must be worthy. Therefore, it's a SOLID "NO" vote *until* the final language contains miracles not present in the AIP.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
I am undecided because the final language is not out. However, unlike many others here, I am not saying YES merely based on the AIP. I'm not even allowing that to enter my calculus. I've signed many contracts in my lifetime and this one is no different. In order for me to agree to a contract, it must be worthy. Therefore, it's a SOLID "NO" vote *until* the final language contains miracles not present in the AIP.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-22-2018, 04:22 PM
#417
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Left,Right, Left, Right,Right,Left, Right, Left
Posts: 3,150
You read the bullet points. You’ve seen nothing but highlights. You haven’t even gotten cliffnotes.
Originally Posted by queue
Well, I read the AIP.
I'm hoping the contract language will contain some kind of miracle(s).
Then I will vote.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
I'm hoping the contract language will contain some kind of miracle(s).
Then I will vote.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-22-2018, 04:28 PM
#418
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
Originally Posted by queue
Yes and No.
I am undecided because the final language is not out. However, unlike many others here, I am not saying YES merely based on the AIP. I'm not even allowing that to enter my calculus. I've signed many contracts in my lifetime and this one is no different. In order for me to agree to a contract, it must be worthy. Therefore, it's a SOLID "NO" vote *until* the final language contains miracles not present in the AIP.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
I am undecided because the final language is not out. However, unlike many others here, I am not saying YES merely based on the AIP. I'm not even allowing that to enter my calculus. I've signed many contracts in my lifetime and this one is no different. In order for me to agree to a contract, it must be worthy. Therefore, it's a SOLID "NO" vote *until* the final language contains miracles not present in the AIP.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
Btw, If you're such an old soul when it comes to signing these contracts, why would you expect any details in the bulletpoint presentation?
Ive only signed 2 before, but any details in the initial release, required extensive explanation before they could be understood in totality. Was your experience different? Were bulletpoints even released, or did they go straight to T/A. Where was this extensive knowledge gained Mr Q?
05-22-2018, 04:31 PM
#419
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Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand
You read the bullet points. You’ve seen nothing but highlights. You haven’t even gotten cliffnotes.
Again, if the highlights are the best parts, then it's not enough to bring me up to Yes.
My vote is an automatic NO until I see several miracles happen that aren't covered by the highlights, which are purportedly the "best" parts of the negotiation results. Logically, if there are other golden eggs in the draft contract, surely they would have gloated about it in the AIP. Oddly, they didn't. This leads me to believe the AIP is truly what they settled for and that the final language will only gift wrap the AIP with nothing "better".
You can't fill a 1 Gallon jug with 2 teacups. I'll need a dozen more teacups to convert to Yes. Until then, it's a SOLID "NO".
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-22-2018, 04:32 PM
#420
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Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
I don’t know? I think there are hard-lined NO guys who weren’t going to vote YES for Deta +10% and profit sharing.
If we go back to the table with a NO vote I think you’re looking at 6 months of back and forths that culminates in maybe $60mil total incentive pay out and maybe a couple more compensation gains here and there. But at what expense? Is the NC now going to be overly cautious in what they agree too? Do they give back on $86/1yr pay? Maybe to like $65? I think that the AIP, in purely a pay rate comparison, allows the junior side (0-60% seniority) of the group the majority of the gains. This is a good thing for sure. That’s where I think the NC would be forced to give back in order to see gains to the package that would primarily benefit the senior group.
Again, this is the cumbyah airline where let it not be forgotten the senior guys here left blood, sweat and tears for this place to survive. They did it because the senior pilot groups at UsAir ABX AA TWA DAL betrayed them. Don’t let this mentality drive the greed at the renegotiating side. If there are glaring problems in the language of the presented TA, then you can make an argument. But right now the conversation is about “the knowns.” ($)
Vote YES
-Bubs
If we go back to the table with a NO vote I think you’re looking at 6 months of back and forths that culminates in maybe $60mil total incentive pay out and maybe a couple more compensation gains here and there. But at what expense? Is the NC now going to be overly cautious in what they agree too? Do they give back on $86/1yr pay? Maybe to like $65? I think that the AIP, in purely a pay rate comparison, allows the junior side (0-60% seniority) of the group the majority of the gains. This is a good thing for sure. That’s where I think the NC would be forced to give back in order to see gains to the package that would primarily benefit the senior group.
Again, this is the cumbyah airline where let it not be forgotten the senior guys here left blood, sweat and tears for this place to survive. They did it because the senior pilot groups at UsAir ABX AA TWA DAL betrayed them. Don’t let this mentality drive the greed at the renegotiating side. If there are glaring problems in the language of the presented TA, then you can make an argument. But right now the conversation is about “the knowns.” ($)
Vote YES
-Bubs
And if some are afraid of this going another year then you really didn’t have the stones all along to strike if it came down to it. You’ve been bluffing all along
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