AIP.
05-24-2018, 12:38 PM
#501
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 988
Originally Posted by 11Bravo
Couldn’t have said it better BeatNavy, but what do I know... I’m just an old grunt and not a Seaman!
Gotta give JB credit....HR knows how to hire the “right pilot” ....maybe that’s why Joanne got her promotion.....
Last edited by BunkerF16; 05-24-2018 at 01:05 PM.
05-24-2018, 12:39 PM
#502
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,099
Originally Posted by BeatNavy
I'll bite. First, we need to clarify, while this is a 4 year contract, we are likely to be working under it for 6-8 years. They won't just give just give us a new/better contract in 4 years when this becomes amendable. They will drag it out as long as possible. So we have to factor in the end rates for this are likely all we will get for a long time, while EVERY one of our peers opens up now thru 2019 and will likely get even higher rates (assuming they keep the 3-4% trajectory), putting us further behind as our low rates grow at 2% three times. We don't just vote in a substandard TA now, because we think we can improve it in a few years. That's not how this works.
Negotiations are based on current assumptions not future. In other words we are negotiating for now. The arguments that "X" carrier will be at "X" rate in their next contract does not work.
$3-$4 an hour? No. 320/321 blended rate should be $265 min with 3% COLA. Our end rate in our contract is $275. Way too low for the next 4-8 years for a blended rate, for an aircraft that will likely be flying to Europe, with an embarrassingly low intl override. 3% with a $265 DOS would put it at $290 at the end of the contract. On the E190/195/CS100/300 side there's an even bigger delta. We got $228/$248. DOS rates need to be $240/$250, with 3%. My personal baseline is DOS $230 E190, $240 E195, $240 CS100, $250 CS300, and 3% of course.
Blended rate is something that is considered industry standard.
We should also have a stipulation that there is a 3% COLA increase each year the contract expires (well it doesn't expire, just becomes amendable). This would motivate the company to not drag it out, which airlines, especially this one, love to do. They need financial incentive to negotiate in good faith and in a timely manner.
Agreed but what are you willing to give up for something that isn't standard?
Waiting 6-12 months for these gains? Who says it would take that long? Where's the proof? It COULD take that long, but JetBlue now wants this done. Jamie Baker/JP Morgan have applied a new level of pressure, one that they respond to. They have deals they want to make, and being in a protracted labor dispute won't help that. If the company can fix a few things with the AIP, this thing will be acceptable/good. If we vote this down, its very likely in my opinion that they will fix the deficiencies, with or without a mediator, for the small percentage increase in their overall cost for a pilot contract. They are at the point where it makes financial sense for the company to get a pilot deal.
The mediator considers this a fair deal. There is no way to prove Jamie Bakers influence and the airline is fully prepared to continue down this path. The financial value of the contract is higher than the VDA/RSA calculation.
Next, we aren't a regional. How our mediator dealt with a regional is completely irrelevant. We are the most profitable major airline in the country by some metrics, we spend gobs of money on frivolous stuff, and we sell our own seats. Does a regional do any of that? Does a regional have near the revenue per pilot that we do? No. Our mediator doesn't care what deal is made. His job is just to facilitate negotiations and keep the negotiations going and prevent them from stalling. If we vote this down, it's irrelevant to his position. Should he be involved in hypothetical follow up negotiations after this vote, his stance won't change. He will tell the two sides to come to terms that would satisfy management and satisfy the pilot group. If this gets voted down, obviously the current terms of the AIP/TA didn't satisfy the pilots. So something will have to give, and it won't be from us.
Negotiating is negotiating. Mediator doesn't care if you are a Legacy or not. Pattern bargaining is established there is a standard.
They clearly don't care about the operation...they put Joanna in charge of it. But they care about Wall St and their pending aircraft purchases in which they are "deep into negotiations." I am getting RSA emails constantly right now, and it isn't even summer. Who cares if we have people picking stuff up right now. Since we have an AIP, we aren't in a labor dispute. But even all these helpers won't help the shtshow that will ensue this summer. But that doesn't matter nearly as much as Wall St pressure to wrap this up, taking me back to my point about this not taking 6-12 months to fix with a no vote.
Is this industry standard now? No, it isn't. Our 2018/2019 rates fall short, as do our COLA increases. Based on only the bullet points, we have a LOT of good things in this contract. We have some average things in this contract. And we have some things that are meh. And we have a LOT of things that will depend on the language. BUT, rates won't change with language, neither will COLA increases, and neither will profit sharing. Where this could be the greatest thing since sliced bread everywhere else, those items make it very difficult to look past. After reading the language, educating ourselves, and seeing the road shows, we can all decide for ourselves if it meets our individual and collective expectations.
Is waiting 6-12 months for $3 an hour a good idea? No way. But that was a false choice you presented, or at least a choice based on assumptions that I believe to be off base and not realistic.
Negotiations are based on current assumptions not future. In other words we are negotiating for now. The arguments that "X" carrier will be at "X" rate in their next contract does not work.
$3-$4 an hour? No. 320/321 blended rate should be $265 min with 3% COLA. Our end rate in our contract is $275. Way too low for the next 4-8 years for a blended rate, for an aircraft that will likely be flying to Europe, with an embarrassingly low intl override. 3% with a $265 DOS would put it at $290 at the end of the contract. On the E190/195/CS100/300 side there's an even bigger delta. We got $228/$248. DOS rates need to be $240/$250, with 3%. My personal baseline is DOS $230 E190, $240 E195, $240 CS100, $250 CS300, and 3% of course.
Blended rate is something that is considered industry standard.
We should also have a stipulation that there is a 3% COLA increase each year the contract expires (well it doesn't expire, just becomes amendable). This would motivate the company to not drag it out, which airlines, especially this one, love to do. They need financial incentive to negotiate in good faith and in a timely manner.
Agreed but what are you willing to give up for something that isn't standard?
Waiting 6-12 months for these gains? Who says it would take that long? Where's the proof? It COULD take that long, but JetBlue now wants this done. Jamie Baker/JP Morgan have applied a new level of pressure, one that they respond to. They have deals they want to make, and being in a protracted labor dispute won't help that. If the company can fix a few things with the AIP, this thing will be acceptable/good. If we vote this down, its very likely in my opinion that they will fix the deficiencies, with or without a mediator, for the small percentage increase in their overall cost for a pilot contract. They are at the point where it makes financial sense for the company to get a pilot deal.
The mediator considers this a fair deal. There is no way to prove Jamie Bakers influence and the airline is fully prepared to continue down this path. The financial value of the contract is higher than the VDA/RSA calculation.
Next, we aren't a regional. How our mediator dealt with a regional is completely irrelevant. We are the most profitable major airline in the country by some metrics, we spend gobs of money on frivolous stuff, and we sell our own seats. Does a regional do any of that? Does a regional have near the revenue per pilot that we do? No. Our mediator doesn't care what deal is made. His job is just to facilitate negotiations and keep the negotiations going and prevent them from stalling. If we vote this down, it's irrelevant to his position. Should he be involved in hypothetical follow up negotiations after this vote, his stance won't change. He will tell the two sides to come to terms that would satisfy management and satisfy the pilot group. If this gets voted down, obviously the current terms of the AIP/TA didn't satisfy the pilots. So something will have to give, and it won't be from us.
Negotiating is negotiating. Mediator doesn't care if you are a Legacy or not. Pattern bargaining is established there is a standard.
They clearly don't care about the operation...they put Joanna in charge of it. But they care about Wall St and their pending aircraft purchases in which they are "deep into negotiations." I am getting RSA emails constantly right now, and it isn't even summer. Who cares if we have people picking stuff up right now. Since we have an AIP, we aren't in a labor dispute. But even all these helpers won't help the shtshow that will ensue this summer. But that doesn't matter nearly as much as Wall St pressure to wrap this up, taking me back to my point about this not taking 6-12 months to fix with a no vote.
Is this industry standard now? No, it isn't. Our 2018/2019 rates fall short, as do our COLA increases. Based on only the bullet points, we have a LOT of good things in this contract. We have some average things in this contract. And we have some things that are meh. And we have a LOT of things that will depend on the language. BUT, rates won't change with language, neither will COLA increases, and neither will profit sharing. Where this could be the greatest thing since sliced bread everywhere else, those items make it very difficult to look past. After reading the language, educating ourselves, and seeing the road shows, we can all decide for ourselves if it meets our individual and collective expectations.
Is waiting 6-12 months for $3 an hour a good idea? No way. But that was a false choice you presented, or at least a choice based on assumptions that I believe to be off base and not realistic.
05-24-2018, 01:19 PM
#503
Covfefe
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Negotiations are based on current assumptions not future. In other words we are negotiating for now. The arguments that "X" carrier will be at "X" rate in their next contract does not work.
Blended rate is something that is considered industry standard.
Agreed but what are you willing to give up for something that isn't standard?
The mediator considers this a fair deal. There is no way to prove Jamie Bakers influence and the airline is fully prepared to continue down this path. The financial value of the contract is higher than the VDA/RSA calculation.
Negotiating is negotiating. Mediator doesn't care if you are a Legacy or not. Pattern bargaining is established there is a standard.
Blended rate is something that is considered industry standard.
Agreed but what are you willing to give up for something that isn't standard?
The mediator considers this a fair deal. There is no way to prove Jamie Bakers influence and the airline is fully prepared to continue down this path. The financial value of the contract is higher than the VDA/RSA calculation.
Negotiating is negotiating. Mediator doesn't care if you are a Legacy or not. Pattern bargaining is established there is a standard.
Blended rate is standard…and I’m fine with that, so long as it’s market rate. I clearly laid out what I consider peer set average based on blended and separate rates from all our peers (all 737/320/321s). 260-320 rate, 270-321 rate, or 265 blended. Take your pick. That’s my minimum to achieve “average.” I’m not even asking for leading.
Not willing to give up anything. We shouldn’t have to. We are bound by a law that favors management and gives them zero incentive to negotiate in good faith. This is like a pre-nup in a way. It’s a chance for two parties to agree now, not when things get heated after the fact and people act/negotiate/vote with emotions, on mutually agreed upon terms, that we can change things in 4 years on the amendable date. It gives the company flexibility to keep it status quo and not negotiate a new contract and let our pay go up, or renegotiate something that is mutually agreed upon and fair to both sides. It doesn’t cost the company anything over the life of the contract. It costs them only if they refuse to negotiate later. So, while not industry standard, it is free for the company over the life of the contract.
The mediator’s job isn’t to determine what is a fair deal, his job is to get two sides to agree on terms and keep making progress on otherwise stalled negotiations. And if he does (or doesn’t) think something is fair, that has no real bearing on the outcome of negotiations. It’s up to each side to decide what they are willing to accept…not based on what a mediator thinks is fair. The mediator gets two groups to agree on stuff. No one is bound by his opinions or suggestions. Re Jamie Baker, No one can prove ANY factor in negotiations has any bearing on how JetBlue will act in future negotiations, or why they acted how the did in the last 2 months. No one has a crystal ball. But the company sure started playing ball going from “far apart in cornerstone items” to reaching an AIP in 2 negotiating sessions. While the financial value of the contract may be higher, the downgrade and Wall St pressure has a lot of value that isn’t measured by dollar costs from either RSAs or the contract.
Regionals pattern bargain off of regionals. Majors pattern bargain off of majors. Major airline contracts have been going up. This puts us at #6. It falls below peer set average. We aren’t bound by any rule, regulation, or precedent to stay #6 and below peer set average.
05-24-2018, 01:44 PM
#504
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 16
The bullet points were supposed to be the highlights of the AIP... I’m tired of my peers telling me to wait and see the whole language. I have supposedly seen the best of the AIP and I am severely disappointed. I don’t think 300 pages of sh!t are going to make me change my mind after seeing this garbage. But hey... “it’s better than what we have now” I was just told. Bend over and take it brothers and sisters. We are going to bring down the industry when they vote in better agreements and we have to live with this for the next 4 years at least...
05-24-2018, 02:32 PM
#505
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 332
Originally Posted by 11Bravo
The bullet points were supposed to be the highlights of the AIP... I’m tired of my peers telling me to wait and see the whole language. I have supposedly seen the best of the AIP and I am severely disappointed. I don’t think 300 pages of sh!t are going to make me change my mind after seeing this garbage. But hey... “it’s better than what we have now” I was just told. Bend over and take it brothers and sisters. We are going to bring down the industry when they vote in better agreements and we have to live with this for the next 4 years at least...
05-24-2018, 02:39 PM
#508
Covfefe
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Originally Posted by jtrain609
You think this will be JetBlue in 4 years? I'm expecting a merger with Alaska.
Also, having a substandard CBA will make it more difficult to get a good JCBA in a merger scenario. It would also limit ALK in their negotiations that start soon, having the same effect on the pattern...
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