AIP.
05-27-2018 | 09:15 AM
#601
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
You can’t go into a labor dispute a day after a contract becomes amendable and negotiations open. I don’t think there’s any precedent for that, and I don’t think ALPA would take that stance. You have to at least try to negotiate in good faith, then file for mediation if that doesn’t work, then progress into a labor dispute if that doesn’t work. Full disclosure, I don’t know when we are set to open sec 6 negotiations if this passes, and/or the full term of the TA that is to be seen, but I can’t imagine ALPA wouid just go into labor dispute mode right away. And we won’t have the same leverage then as we do now.
"(9) The term “labor dispute” includes any controversy concerning terms, tenure or conditions of employment, or concerning the association or representation of persons in negotiating, fixing, maintaining, changing, or seeking to arrange terms or conditions of employment, regardless of whether the disputants stand in the proximate relation of employer and employee."
29 USC § 152(9)
If we have early openers a year prior, then I'd say we meet this definition the first day past the amendable date that we don't have an agreement.
05-27-2018 | 09:27 AM
#602
Banned
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 0
People are too eager to rent themselves out cheap.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-27-2018 | 09:38 AM
#603
Banned
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 0
You can’t go into a labor dispute a day after a contract becomes amendable and negotiations open. I don’t think there’s any precedent for that, and I don’t think ALPA would take that stance. You have to at least try to negotiate in good faith, then file for mediation if that doesn’t work, then progress into a labor dispute if that doesn’t work. Full disclosure, I don’t know when we are set to open sec 6 negotiations if this passes, and/or the full term of the TA that is to be seen, but I can’t imagine ALPA wouid just go into labor dispute mode right away. And we won’t have the same leverage then as we do now.
Does precedent apply outside of legal court action where precedent means case law?
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-27-2018 | 12:02 PM
#605
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Checkers vs chess
We got outmaneuvered. Plain and simple.
Hamstringed my the RLA......using pilots to negotiate against MGMT backed by ford and Harrison with Decades of experience in exactly how to handle dumb union members...........why do pilots think it’s so easy and we are so smart?
Giggity is smarter than us. She has no idea how to run an airline, but she is SMARTER than the majority of us. She will be the first female CEO of an airline........incompetent...yes...but look at us! First FEMALE CEO!!!! We are awesome! Doesn’t that sound like the JETBLUE you know and hate? Point is...they make irrational decisions because they don’t know how to run an airline.
But they excel in running a PR firm.
They win either way. We vote this turd in and they get what they want. We vote it down and they say “fine.....we’ll do it the hard way” and JetSuite ventures gets 100 135’s and 100 Cseries.
They have a plan if this TA fails.
Either they:
1) negotiate some more....and come to the table with a real offer?
Or
2) stall for however long it takes to Execute the backup plan we don’t know about?
Based on your years of experience with how this company operates.....what do you think they will do?
Serious question.....will they do “what’s right”?
Or
Jetcheap their way around a dollar to save a dime and do it the hard way?
We got outmaneuvered. Plain and simple.
Hamstringed my the RLA......using pilots to negotiate against MGMT backed by ford and Harrison with Decades of experience in exactly how to handle dumb union members...........why do pilots think it’s so easy and we are so smart?
Giggity is smarter than us. She has no idea how to run an airline, but she is SMARTER than the majority of us. She will be the first female CEO of an airline........incompetent...yes...but look at us! First FEMALE CEO!!!! We are awesome! Doesn’t that sound like the JETBLUE you know and hate? Point is...they make irrational decisions because they don’t know how to run an airline.
But they excel in running a PR firm.
They win either way. We vote this turd in and they get what they want. We vote it down and they say “fine.....we’ll do it the hard way” and JetSuite ventures gets 100 135’s and 100 Cseries.
They have a plan if this TA fails.
Either they:
1) negotiate some more....and come to the table with a real offer?
Or
2) stall for however long it takes to Execute the backup plan we don’t know about?
Based on your years of experience with how this company operates.....what do you think they will do?
Serious question.....will they do “what’s right”?
Or
Jetcheap their way around a dollar to save a dime and do it the hard way?
05-27-2018 | 02:49 PM
#606
UCH Pilot
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 776
Likes: 1
From: 787
Thats because JB isn’t big enough or fly widebody planes to Europe or Asia to really need a feed. When someone buys a ticket to Paris on JB, who’s flying them there? Because you can’t make it in an A-320. Seems that JB is the feed for someone else’s International flying. So yes, the Big 3 all have massive RJ Express carriers flying to Scranton, etc while we also fly 777s, 787s, 767s etc, all over the world. So saying you don’t want Legacy rates if it comes with legacy scope makes no sense. You’ve farmed out 100% of international flying, the most premium flying out there for pay and QOL. Good luck with your contract, I hope it turns out being better than it appears. You’re going to be stuck with it for a long time.
05-27-2018 | 03:05 PM
#607
Banned
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
Likes: 0
Thats because JB isn’t big enough or fly widebody planes to Europe or Asia to really need a feed. When someone buys a ticket to Paris on JB, who’s flying them there? Because you can’t make it in an A-320. Seems that JB is the feed for someone else’s International flying. So yes, the Big 3 all have massive RJ Express carriers flying to Scranton, etc while we also fly 777s, 787s, 767s etc, all over the world. So saying you don’t want Legacy rates if it comes with legacy scope makes no sense. You’ve farmed out 100% of international flying, the most premium flying out there for pay and QOL. Good luck with your contract, I hope it turns out being better than it appears. You’re going to be stuck with it for a long time.
This. The only way I would even THINK about voting for this thing is if it included very strong clawback of the widebody wh*reing we do, to be replaced with OUR metal. As it stands we wont even be doing all our own part 91 flights (read Airbus pickups in Europe and depot drop offs) under this turd.
Vote NO.
05-27-2018 | 04:06 PM
#608
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
From: At JBLU
05-27-2018 | 04:23 PM
#609
Banned
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 0
No one who does something for the first time knows how to do it. You would do much better than current management because you know the industry at a working level. The management 101 stuff is trivial and easy. You may have to sell your morals and ethics to make it in NYC but there are exceptions.
I would venture to guess that about 70% of all other industries out there are more difficult than running an airline. Think about it... there are no real unknowns. It's not fundamentally different than buying a fleet of cabs then copying the competition. There are plenty of management consultants that will walk you through airline management 101. There are hundreds of "air carriers" flying under Part 121 and Part 135 that are total amateur operations, yet they turn a profit.
Getting to the moon was hard. Airline stuff is not intellectually "hard" - it just takes brute force.
- Kennedy says he wants the USA to get to the Moon (~1962)
- When the astronauts landed on the moon (~1969)
- ~7 years
- Time elapsed so far on the BJ contract negotiation: ~3+ yrs
- Average age of Apollo engineers: 28 yrs old
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-27-2018 | 04:37 PM
#610
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,047
Likes: 0
From: B6
What is the legal definition of "good faith"?
Does precedent apply outside of legal court action where precedent means case law?
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
Does precedent apply outside of legal court action where precedent means case law?
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
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