Originally Posted by Bluedriver

I did say a whole lot more than that though...

Originally Posted by Bluedriver

Why exactly? What's in the full language that's so good? Frankly, I want you to be right, so let's hear the "why" bud?

Originally Posted by blueballs

What does that have to do with me saying that the surveys worked? I said obviously you aren’t the majority and that the majority outside of the forums aren’t being as aggressively yes or no. You don’t speak for the majority! Nor do I, however, the surveys we took that the Nyc/mec are privy to do speak for the majority.
Stay on topic. I think you’re confusing yourself

Originally Posted by blueballs

You do know that you and the 15 guys on bluepilots do not represent the majority. I’m fairly certain the surveys gave plenty of direction to the nc. They followed that direction and got us a solid aip. It has faults but every contract does. You guys shouting for 300 bucks an hour and 100 million in signing bonus aren’t exactly understanding how a contract is formed. There are many parts that all come together to create an ok contract. All sides should be a little disappointed. That’s how this works.

Originally Posted by rvr1800

The contract comparison guide published by the MEC shows you all of the things you wanted them to point out to you in the survey. So it’s their fault you couldn’t reference that while you took the survey? I certainly was asked in the last survey what I think my pay rate should be.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver

This. All of this. By the time this vote is over our leverage probably ends until next May. Unless this union and pilot group step up the labor dispute stuff to level 15.

I would NOT be in favor of replacing the MEC or negotiating committee. More wasted time. They are all good people, they just had a ruthless opponent that was refusing to give us true industry parity.

Well, IF the vote fails the NC can go back in there with a clear mandate. New surveys, hard labor dispute media and picketing, go hard.

Even then, a small pain point for the company around the holidays and then again for spring break. Big leverage is again one YEAR from now.

We have been backed into a very difficult corner by this company, and frankly it is our fault, we LET it happen by calling a labor dispute WAY to late and by most of you individual pilots freely offering up your individual patience and good will for years because of a false belief that this company was going to offer you industry standard or market rate.

Look where we are now. I could spend the rest of my life regurgitating quotes from this group that make us all look like fools.

Now we have the history to prove we have been fools.

As beatnavy said in his great posts, this locks us into last place among our peers and I'm not sure I see a good path out of this mess. We will be suffering this contract for the next 7-8 YEARS, while in 5th/6th out of 6th place.

Maybe the language will have some unicorns and other mythical creatures in it. I'll wait to read it, but I highly doubt it.

Originally Posted by queue

I do wonder if it would be better to skip all the surveys since it seems to give the NC/MEC false direction. I hated the survey because it always makes us give responses that choose between A *or* B. There really wasn't to say that we want A *and* B. I really hope their "road show" won't just be them trying to sell the AIP to us based on survey results. I will never forgive them if they hide behind the survey because THEY chose to use the survey as their playbook rather than just a survey.



I think these guys ought to just take the fight all the way to strike for as long as possible in order to get as much as possible. If you think about it, BJ is doing the exact same thing. They are in for the long war in order to get the greatest number of victories. As I've said before, they control timeline... up until now. Now things have happened (externalities) out of their control and they were FORCED to act. Now is our time to act by continuing to seize the effect of externalities UNTIL we get an proxy-industry leading result. Backing down to any degree is wrong (think WWII, Gulf War 1, vs. Vietnam).



We know that picketing at strategic locations and times, influencing financial analysts is their weak point. Why not exploit that till the end? Otherwise we will keep getting crumbs as dictated by their playbook. I think it would be better to attack relentlessly so that we don't simply play along with their playbook scenarios - that will destabilize them to make decisions previously unacceptable to them.



Now we need to make it clear to the NC/MEC that THEY need to provide the terms of victory (e.g. pay/rules in the neighborhood of the *average* of the top 4, but no lower than the lowest, SWA). The whole system is rigged to make us compromise beginning from where we are now. Since we're at the bottom of the barrel, there's literally nowhere to go but up, but there's an understood and expected glass ceiling. This glass ceiling is a totally false concept that we are choosing to accept. Management knows all this - they engineered it. They kept taking away and taking away while the apologists and Stockholm Syndrome sufferers learned to love it. They kept our expectations and standards low using "culture" and false promises. This was all in preparation for inevitable union contract negotiations -- so that they could rationalize to us that any contract proposal they agree to is BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAD. And that's the false choice we have been presented... an AIP that is better than the engineered trough. Looking at all the years of lost pay, the amount of time to get to the final pay in the AIP, they win because overall they have saved billions. They are playing us. In 1-2 yrs, we'll be in last place AGAIN.



Vote NO.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Originally Posted by queue

I don't think they asked any questions that could have been used to write requirements. I don't remember ever seeing numbers. Wasn't it all almost philosophic? It seems like the questions were designed to create a way to rationalize a system of prioritization (e.g. pay vs. QOL).

I would have gotten everyone else's contracts and asked people to highlight the parts they would've wanted, then have sections for other things to include. The result would be a list of MINIMUM requirements below which no compromise is possible.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Originally Posted by Bluedriver

Solid? Locked into 5th or 6th out of the big 6 for 7-8 years is solid?

Originally Posted by hyperboy

I highly doubt you will call me cause you are a coward. Why don’t you shut your mouth while the adults are talking and WAIT for the language.

Call me.