TA Reached
12-22-2022 | 03:36 PM
#371
On Reserve
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 81
Likes: 3
From: FO
I’d leave if I were you. I’m debating it and I’ve been here a long time. That said, last TA with a signing bonus gave a lot to new guys, many of whom took the money on their way out the door, which caused a lot of pis5ed off guys. No real good way to split that up without ticking off one demographic. Honestly the best way is to just use a percentage of the previous year’s earnings, but the new guys would get nada that way.
12-23-2022 | 10:47 AM
#372
On Reserve
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Just remember, when this passes 75-25, and spirits passes, the company will remember that all these bluebelles and taxibus drivers are willing to accept rates $43 ($70 in spirits case) less than delta’s top rates with zero profit sharing. They won’t forget that in JCBA negotiations. All a yes vote does at both companies is confirm your low self-worth to the jetblue c suite and BOD going forward, and they’ll always be able to count on you getting them next time.
Can you explain your math on this one? Are you referring to widebody rates?
12-23-2022 | 12:31 PM
#373
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 436
Likes: 14
For those of you junior guys on the fence, these are the types of pilots who elect to stay.
Imagine 30 years of trying to raise the bar here with these types doing everything they can to thwart you.
12-23-2022 | 01:09 PM
#374
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 472
Likes: 1
12-23-2022 | 03:13 PM
#375
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
From: Hack pilot
Comparison must be made for associated timelines.
12-24-2022 | 10:44 AM
#376
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 472
Likes: 1
When does that $383 take effect? 4-5 year mark? We will be knee deep in JCBA by then. While I’m not a yes voter, I think you’re spreading a very false narrative. Our TA is a 2 year deal, comparing our top pay rate at 2 years from now vs Deltas 4 years from now isn’t a valid argument. We are within $10 /hr of delta Airbus for the next 2 years?
Comparison must be made for associated timelines.
Comparison must be made for associated timelines.
320/330/340 for 3/23 8/23 8/24. The only real chance the snap up will increase B6 rates is the 8/24. Then consider profit sharing. Then in 2025-2026 the rates get blown away with no snap up. B6 pilots will be lucky to have a JCBA in 2026. That’s pretty optimistic. So you do in fact need to look at the top rates since you’ll be living with them for much more than the covered 17 months. Realistically jetblue pilots will likely be under this contract extension for the same duration, or close to it, as the duration of the delta contract. And at no point do the jetblue rates exceed deltas despite getting earlier raises. They start behind and get further and further behind. And the snap up is written with the timing and with Alaska included to make it basically useless, and it doesn’t recognize or account for in the snap up language the guaranteed bonus money Alaska gets. And it excludes the delta 321NEO delta rates. What???
Also, probably more notable, with CBA 1, the union said the reason the rates were topped where they were is because jetblue management said that they couldn’t tell Wall Street that jetblue pilots had pay rates higher than any legacy, and that it was a nonstarter, so they had to hide money in other areas. My point back then to the union was that thats a pretty bad position to accept since they were comparing 2019 delta rates (last raise before amendable date) to 2021 jetblue rates, and that the 2016/17/18/19 slope would show delta rates easily surpassing JetBlue’s, so that ought to be justification enough as to why exceeding delta rates 3 years after their amendable date shouldn’t be a nonstarter.
but anyway, that position apparently only works one way. For example, you’re arguing that top rates have to be compared only in the applicable years. But both management and ALPA rejected that premise when selling CBA 1 saying B6 top rates couldn’t exceed few year old delta rates. But now the time reference on the scale does in fact matter? See where I’m going? Factor in profit sharing and it’s not even close.
With this TA, B6 pilots are pretty much accepting being 6/6 in comp amongst the mutually accepted peer set. And the timing of the JCBA puts jetblue/spirit in the thick of negotiating before the next cycle of contract negotiations to pave the way and raise the bar. I just don’t think accepting such low rates is wise when $383 321 rates are already being AIP/TAd. In 2026 jetblue will be 12.6% behind delta in rates with another 10-20% on top in profit sharing. And have a whole host of QOL items to address. B6 can’t even get per set standard when we can’t even attract anyone with 2,000 hours anymore, but somehow, even after the majors all hire 1500-2500/yr mostly young guys in the next 3-4 years, there will be so much JCBA leverage that all these cans we keep kicking down the road will be achievable? I’m just not optimistic that sealing a $43 delta between delta and B6 top rates for a contract that will last as long as theirs is wise. But we can circle back to this post in about 4 years and see how things are going.
12-24-2022 | 07:40 PM
#377
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
335/352/366/380 for 23/24/25/26, probably effective early in those years if it follows their previous effective dates.
320/330/340 for 3/23 8/23 8/24. The only real chance the snap up will increase B6 rates is the 8/24. Then consider profit sharing. Then in 2025-2026 the rates get blown away with no snap up. B6 pilots will be lucky to have a JCBA in 2026. That’s pretty optimistic. So you do in fact need to look at the top rates since you’ll be living with them for much more than the covered 17 months. Realistically jetblue pilots will likely be under this contract extension for the same duration, or close to it, as the duration of the delta contract. And at no point do the jetblue rates exceed deltas despite getting earlier raises. They start behind and get further and further behind. And the snap up is written with the timing and with Alaska included to make it basically useless, and it doesn’t recognize or account for in the snap up language the guaranteed bonus money Alaska gets. And it excludes the delta 321NEO delta rates. What???
Also, probably more notable, with CBA 1, the union said the reason the rates were topped where they were is because jetblue management said that they couldn’t tell Wall Street that jetblue pilots had pay rates higher than any legacy, and that it was a nonstarter, so they had to hide money in other areas. My point back then to the union was that thats a pretty bad position to accept since they were comparing 2019 delta rates (last raise before amendable date) to 2021 jetblue rates, and that the 2016/17/18/19 slope would show delta rates easily surpassing JetBlue’s, so that ought to be justification enough as to why exceeding delta rates 3 years after their amendable date shouldn’t be a nonstarter.
but anyway, that position apparently only works one way. For example, you’re arguing that top rates have to be compared only in the applicable years. But both management and ALPA rejected that premise when selling CBA 1 saying B6 top rates couldn’t exceed few year old delta rates. But now the time reference on the scale does in fact matter? See where I’m going? Factor in profit sharing and it’s not even close.
With this TA, B6 pilots are pretty much accepting being 6/6 in comp amongst the mutually accepted peer set. And the timing of the JCBA puts jetblue/spirit in the thick of negotiating before the next cycle of contract negotiations to pave the way and raise the bar. I just don’t think accepting such low rates is wise when $383 321 rates are already being AIP/TAd. In 2026 jetblue will be 12.6% behind delta in rates with another 10-20% on top in profit sharing. And have a whole host of QOL items to address. B6 can’t even get per set standard when we can’t even attract anyone with 2,000 hours anymore, but somehow, even after the majors all hire 1500-2500/yr mostly young guys in the next 3-4 years, there will be so much JCBA leverage that all these cans we keep kicking down the road will be achievable? I’m just not optimistic that sealing a $43 delta between delta and B6 top rates for a contract that will last as long as theirs is wise. But we can circle back to this post in about 4 years and see how things are going.
320/330/340 for 3/23 8/23 8/24. The only real chance the snap up will increase B6 rates is the 8/24. Then consider profit sharing. Then in 2025-2026 the rates get blown away with no snap up. B6 pilots will be lucky to have a JCBA in 2026. That’s pretty optimistic. So you do in fact need to look at the top rates since you’ll be living with them for much more than the covered 17 months. Realistically jetblue pilots will likely be under this contract extension for the same duration, or close to it, as the duration of the delta contract. And at no point do the jetblue rates exceed deltas despite getting earlier raises. They start behind and get further and further behind. And the snap up is written with the timing and with Alaska included to make it basically useless, and it doesn’t recognize or account for in the snap up language the guaranteed bonus money Alaska gets. And it excludes the delta 321NEO delta rates. What???
Also, probably more notable, with CBA 1, the union said the reason the rates were topped where they were is because jetblue management said that they couldn’t tell Wall Street that jetblue pilots had pay rates higher than any legacy, and that it was a nonstarter, so they had to hide money in other areas. My point back then to the union was that thats a pretty bad position to accept since they were comparing 2019 delta rates (last raise before amendable date) to 2021 jetblue rates, and that the 2016/17/18/19 slope would show delta rates easily surpassing JetBlue’s, so that ought to be justification enough as to why exceeding delta rates 3 years after their amendable date shouldn’t be a nonstarter.
but anyway, that position apparently only works one way. For example, you’re arguing that top rates have to be compared only in the applicable years. But both management and ALPA rejected that premise when selling CBA 1 saying B6 top rates couldn’t exceed few year old delta rates. But now the time reference on the scale does in fact matter? See where I’m going? Factor in profit sharing and it’s not even close.
With this TA, B6 pilots are pretty much accepting being 6/6 in comp amongst the mutually accepted peer set. And the timing of the JCBA puts jetblue/spirit in the thick of negotiating before the next cycle of contract negotiations to pave the way and raise the bar. I just don’t think accepting such low rates is wise when $383 321 rates are already being AIP/TAd. In 2026 jetblue will be 12.6% behind delta in rates with another 10-20% on top in profit sharing. And have a whole host of QOL items to address. B6 can’t even get per set standard when we can’t even attract anyone with 2,000 hours anymore, but somehow, even after the majors all hire 1500-2500/yr mostly young guys in the next 3-4 years, there will be so much JCBA leverage that all these cans we keep kicking down the road will be achievable? I’m just not optimistic that sealing a $43 delta between delta and B6 top rates for a contract that will last as long as theirs is wise. But we can circle back to this post in about 4 years and see how things are going.
And for anyone who worries about “sending it back”, just look at what happened with Mesa, Skywest and Endeavor when management suddenly realized the true leverage the pilot group had.
12-24-2022 | 10:04 PM
#378
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 556
Likes: 2
335/352/366/380 for 23/24/25/26, probably effective early in those years if it follows their previous effective dates.
320/330/340 for 3/23 8/23 8/24. The only real chance the snap up will increase B6 rates is the 8/24. Then consider profit sharing. Then in 2025-2026 the rates get blown away with no snap up. B6 pilots will be lucky to have a JCBA in 2026. That’s pretty optimistic. So you do in fact need to look at the top rates since you’ll be living with them for much more than the covered 17 months. Realistically jetblue pilots will likely be under this contract extension for the same duration, or close to it, as the duration of the delta contract. And at no point do the jetblue rates exceed deltas despite getting earlier raises. They start behind and get further and further behind. And the snap up is written with the timing and with Alaska included to make it basically useless, and it doesn’t recognize or account for in the snap up language the guaranteed bonus money Alaska gets. And it excludes the delta 321NEO delta rates. What???
Also, probably more notable, with CBA 1, the union said the reason the rates were topped where they were is because jetblue management said that they couldn’t tell Wall Street that jetblue pilots had pay rates higher than any legacy, and that it was a nonstarter, so they had to hide money in other areas. My point back then to the union was that thats a pretty bad position to accept since they were comparing 2019 delta rates (last raise before amendable date) to 2021 jetblue rates, and that the 2016/17/18/19 slope would show delta rates easily surpassing JetBlue’s, so that ought to be justification enough as to why exceeding delta rates 3 years after their amendable date shouldn’t be a nonstarter.
but anyway, that position apparently only works one way. For example, you’re arguing that top rates have to be compared only in the applicable years. But both management and ALPA rejected that premise when selling CBA 1 saying B6 top rates couldn’t exceed few year old delta rates. But now the time reference on the scale does in fact matter? See where I’m going? Factor in profit sharing and it’s not even close.
With this TA, B6 pilots are pretty much accepting being 6/6 in comp amongst the mutually accepted peer set. And the timing of the JCBA puts jetblue/spirit in the thick of negotiating before the next cycle of contract negotiations to pave the way and raise the bar. I just don’t think accepting such low rates is wise when $383 321 rates are already being AIP/TAd. In 2026 jetblue will be 12.6% behind delta in rates with another 10-20% on top in profit sharing. And have a whole host of QOL items to address. B6 can’t even get per set standard when we can’t even attract anyone with 2,000 hours anymore, but somehow, even after the majors all hire 1500-2500/yr mostly young guys in the next 3-4 years, there will be so much JCBA leverage that all these cans we keep kicking down the road will be achievable? I’m just not optimistic that sealing a $43 delta between delta and B6 top rates for a contract that will last as long as theirs is wise. But we can circle back to this post in about 4 years and see how things are going.
320/330/340 for 3/23 8/23 8/24. The only real chance the snap up will increase B6 rates is the 8/24. Then consider profit sharing. Then in 2025-2026 the rates get blown away with no snap up. B6 pilots will be lucky to have a JCBA in 2026. That’s pretty optimistic. So you do in fact need to look at the top rates since you’ll be living with them for much more than the covered 17 months. Realistically jetblue pilots will likely be under this contract extension for the same duration, or close to it, as the duration of the delta contract. And at no point do the jetblue rates exceed deltas despite getting earlier raises. They start behind and get further and further behind. And the snap up is written with the timing and with Alaska included to make it basically useless, and it doesn’t recognize or account for in the snap up language the guaranteed bonus money Alaska gets. And it excludes the delta 321NEO delta rates. What???
Also, probably more notable, with CBA 1, the union said the reason the rates were topped where they were is because jetblue management said that they couldn’t tell Wall Street that jetblue pilots had pay rates higher than any legacy, and that it was a nonstarter, so they had to hide money in other areas. My point back then to the union was that thats a pretty bad position to accept since they were comparing 2019 delta rates (last raise before amendable date) to 2021 jetblue rates, and that the 2016/17/18/19 slope would show delta rates easily surpassing JetBlue’s, so that ought to be justification enough as to why exceeding delta rates 3 years after their amendable date shouldn’t be a nonstarter.
but anyway, that position apparently only works one way. For example, you’re arguing that top rates have to be compared only in the applicable years. But both management and ALPA rejected that premise when selling CBA 1 saying B6 top rates couldn’t exceed few year old delta rates. But now the time reference on the scale does in fact matter? See where I’m going? Factor in profit sharing and it’s not even close.
With this TA, B6 pilots are pretty much accepting being 6/6 in comp amongst the mutually accepted peer set. And the timing of the JCBA puts jetblue/spirit in the thick of negotiating before the next cycle of contract negotiations to pave the way and raise the bar. I just don’t think accepting such low rates is wise when $383 321 rates are already being AIP/TAd. In 2026 jetblue will be 12.6% behind delta in rates with another 10-20% on top in profit sharing. And have a whole host of QOL items to address. B6 can’t even get per set standard when we can’t even attract anyone with 2,000 hours anymore, but somehow, even after the majors all hire 1500-2500/yr mostly young guys in the next 3-4 years, there will be so much JCBA leverage that all these cans we keep kicking down the road will be achievable? I’m just not optimistic that sealing a $43 delta between delta and B6 top rates for a contract that will last as long as theirs is wise. But we can circle back to this post in about 4 years and see how things are going.
12-24-2022 | 10:31 PM
#379
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 472
Likes: 1
Cliff notes:
18/5/4/4 for all fleets except for those getting re-banded
the 319/320 gets aligned with 737-800, so it gets:
22/5/4/4
the a220-300 gets realigned with the old 319/320, so it gets:
20/5/4/4
and not that it matters to B6, but 767-400 and a330 get banded with the 350 (as does b787), so those two airframes get
24/5/4/4
bonus: their NEO rate is the same as their ER rate (757/763), which B6ALPA excluded from the snap up. So, despite operating same equipment (321NEO), B6 pilots don’t get to count their 321NEO rate in snap up. So that’s cool.
12-25-2022 | 11:19 AM
#380
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,590
Likes: 346
Jetblue’s always been a tier 2 airline. It was never a first choice. It’s been a decent place to hang your hat due to rapid expansion especially if you live in a base, but no one leaves Delta, American, or United to go to Jetblue. The reverse does happen.
This isn’t a slight on Jetblue pilots and in the future it could change. For now and this contract cycle, it is holding true.
Are you guys still expected to clean the cabins? That’s a slight on Jetblue pilots. Lol.
This isn’t a slight on Jetblue pilots and in the future it could change. For now and this contract cycle, it is holding true.
Are you guys still expected to clean the cabins? That’s a slight on Jetblue pilots. Lol.
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