aewanabe

Actually we mostly have a bunch of people who DO work here, going "neener-neener-neener, screw you MEC, passenger surveys and piloting profession in general. I'll be a dumpster-diver if I want".

full of luv

Hey suit yourself. It's holier than thou to point out that a professional pilot shouldn't be required to clean during a turn then so be it.
I get the pitch in attitude and all but a jb pilot started a thread saying the company required pilots and FAs to clean the airplane on a turn and wanted to point out that this is not necessarily industry standard.

Albief15

I was hired by JB in 2001, but never went to class. 9/11 happened, and I got an offer from FedEx, and in the post 9/11 world flying boxes for such a stable company just made sense. In hindsight it was 100% right for me and my family.

That said, I was very interested in being part of a start up, and the idea of getting on so early was very enticing, especially before 9/11 occurred. One of the things that attracted me to the company was the "teamwork" aspect and the work together mentality.

A few years in the profession, however, showed me quickly how often the captain and the crew had to make important decisions and deal with issues affecting safety and legality. Listening over the years to clients tell me stories about getting violated for W&B issues, MEL problems, etc etc reminded me again and again that attention to detail is paramount in our profession. And like it or not--there is one person--the captain--who signs for that jet and in the process states that the hundreds of lives in his or her hands are safe. My thoughts on the issue are about 180 degrees out from where they were when I first entered this profession.

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I am sending my wife and daughters off around the country and world on an airline, I'd really like their 100% sole attention focused on the job at hand. I don't want an FO running his hands through a seat back looking for "gunk", but instead his/her eyes reviewing the release, weather, and notams one more time. I don't need the captain fighting a carpet stain--I want him relaxing....taking 10 or 15 minutes before the the most critical moments of his life--the moments he is carrying my family along.

Just because the crew looks "relaxed" sipping a cup of coffee up on the flight deck between segments doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. Like a boxer between rounds, or a racer between wind sprints, they are gathering their mental energy and gearing up of the next event. Odds are it will be benign and boring like the thousands of other events they've already done. Or...like my former F-15 squadron mate and 717 Captain at Delta, he might fly into an unpredicted, unannounced windshear at 400 feet on a VFR day and spend the next 2 miles flighting to claw 1000 feet of altitude. My friend is the type of guy who would buy the FAs a round from Starbucks, show them pictures of his wife and daughters and tell them he is lucky to be surrounded by beautiful ladies at home and at work...while being a complete professional. I'm glad in the moments before that day last month, he wasn't on his knees in the floor cleaning the jet, but was instead going through his standard "taking the runway V1/windshear/door opening/***..." mental checklist.

I was raised on a farm. I have literally shoveled **** for hours, and done some pretty gross things to make a dollar. I flipped burgers in High School, worked on our farm, and always had a couple jobs. I'm not afraid to get dirty. In fact, I'm proud of the dirt and crap I've had to roll in at times. Its not about work ethic. The reason the doctor doesn't scrub ER floors is not that he is too good to do such a job, but rather more than likely his services are needed elsewhere for a another surgery. He also needs the time to decompress and reflect, and get ready for the next challenge.

We forget sometimes how close death lies just outside that cockpit window. We've sterilized flying so much now we actually believe its "easy". Its only easy because we are disciplined, well trained, and fly outstanding equipment. Let's make sure that when we go to work, we honor that disciplined approach by giving it our 100% attention and focus. What would YOU want the crew to be doing if it was YOUR family getting on that flight? What is your number one concern? For me--it isn't the "teamwork" or "esprit" of the crew, or the cleanliness of their seats....its getting my treasure home to me safely. Anything else is a distraction.

Southerner

I disagree that cleaning = neglecting your job. If one of my FOs clearly isn't doing his job, then yeah I'll talk to him about what his deficiencies are, and so should you. No problem there.

But that's not what your point was originally. You made it pretty clear that you would talk to your FO purely about cleaning. As long as he is doing his job, you really have no say about it. And you don't have to agree with your FO about everything. Threatening to go to pro stands over an internal political disagreement makes you look bad.

blueFroggy

Interesting points. Honestly, it seems like mountains out of mole hills: there are worse things here to argue about over the safety of the anonymous internet.
After all the influence, I'd still stick with my original plan: I help clean after all the passengers are off. I figure I do this 1 in 5 legs because it is not required on RONs and many places where the aircraft has to be inspected. I don't do it if I am late for a commute(but explain to the FAs why). Most of the time, I am cleaning on a flight I commuted on, again not if it was an RON or I am late.

As a mid level guy here, I am fascinated by the current disjunction of almost everything in the pilot world. One of the biggest polarizers is this cleaning thing. I have flown with guys who insisted we clean, had Captains on my commute chide me for not cleaning even though we were late and I had to run for my working flight. Reciprocally I have gotten as little as frowns and as much as a "jet-bridge talking to" for cleaning on a commute. It is somewhat frustrating to always be in a battle about this and much more distracting than crossing a few seat belts and grabbing maybe 4 pieces of trash out of seat backs. Just my .02.

blueFroggy

And aewanabe, your threats to ruin your FOs lives over this are exponentially worse and more divisive of the pilot group than the actual act of cleaning. Its an interesting conversation, but with that added, you really do look ridiculous. I'd like to know who you are so I can add you to my no fly list(currently empty - yeah I even fly with Malcolm)

BunkerF16

Why would someone start a F-d up thread like this.

Our guidance from our ALPA leadership has, and always will be that we as pilots should not be dumpster diving. Yet guys will do it anyways.

Our ALPA leadership has also stated, NUMEROUS times, to follow SOP in terms of dropping the parking break before pushback....yet dumba$$es don't follow that guidance either.

People in this company are stupid. You can't fix that. So I choose to not get upset and let it ruin my day because others have ulterior motives for their actions.

This thread is an embarrassment--to the guys at JB who have self-respect and for themselves and this profession.

Al Czervik

No one is above dirty laundry. We all have it.

aewanabe

Very well-written Albie, and sums up exactly how I feel about the issue, and why. I was not raised on a farm, but I have done several manual-labor crap jobs over the years on my way to this one. I absolutely do not believe I'm better than another human being because of my profession, but I fully respect and honor the differences that will keep my crew and up to 190 souls behind us alive if and when the dung hits the fan.

If I had the talent to state my point so eloquently in the other thread I wouldn't have ended up getting frustrated enough to start this one. Thank you.

aewanabe

Full disclosure; I flew yesterday with one of the weakest FOs I've had at this company, one who was weak 6 months ago when I was new to the plane, and seems to have learned nothing in the ensuing 6 months. I don't ever, ever, belittle guys for making mistakes; I screw up myself plenty, and needling a guy or gal is the quickest way to completely destroy any semblance of CRM and take them out of the game completely. But I was essentially single pilot for the day, and upon arrival after thankfully only one leg, what happens? You guessed it. This guy is swimming upstream, with his work station not even a little tidied (iPad, trash) with the next crew trying to get into the cockpit.

So I grab all his crap from upfront, stick it in row 1, and when he meets me off the jet I very politely tell him I'd prefer he not clean, but if he chooses to do so to please have his stuff out of the cockpit first. Same conversation I had 6 months ago, same blank stare.

So with that background, I click on the hiring thread on APC, and see a pretty new guy bashing one of our pilots for pointing out that our/your MEC has asked us not to clean. Blood gets boiling, I respond, get a couple guys telling me I have no right to ASK an FO not to clean (still strongly disagree about this) and ultimately end up being far more of a jerk than I initially intended. I'll own up to that, and I'm not here to ruin anyone's career over cleaning.

In the meantime if you fly with Malcolm we are in different bases so unless you head 200 miles north you won't have to worry about avoiding me. Cheers.