JetBlue Cabin cleaning
02-27-2016, 05:31 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 128
Originally Posted by aewanabe
GuardBummer, I've flown with tons of Pease guys, maybe even you (now you know my base). In the other thread, which admittedly got a bit heated, I referenced the FOM and FCOM when another poster called me out, with then caveat that I don't really want to go that route. Section 1 of the FOM has some pretty good info about turn time guidelines, and the respective duties of each pilot. If I respectfully explained my opinion on cleaning to you, asked you to defer when our customers and union have done the same, then pointed out more important priorities in our duties, you'd go back to cleaning to prove a point? I'd win that battle, but it's sad it even needs to be fought.
I have no problem with anyone who doesnt want to cross belts and clean up trash from seat backs. What I do have a problem with is a Captain going to pro standards on a FO because he decides to assist the FAs. Sure, you do this under the guise of missing Notams, etc., which is comical. Try this... How about holding all to the same standards based on their performance instead of trying to get someone talked to by pro standards because you dont like what they do during a turn.
Yes, I would go back to cleaning, as long as I had the time to complete a walk around or my preflight duties. I would do so only out of sight of the customers, which is my standard practice. Of all the battles one could pick, I think you could probably make a bigger impact with a more appropriate battle.
02-27-2016, 05:33 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
Posts: 2,918
Originally Posted by Aviatrx
It is a nice gesture. It certainly should not be in JB's hiring requirements. It is very telling of the culture management is attempting to facilitate. If somebody wants to help out, that is great. A pilots job is flying the plane safely and being a good representation of company values. How does cleaning the plane as a pilot help(not trained in cleaning)? Do they give you rubber gloves and Clorox? Do you want to get yourself sick cleaning that filth?
It is not in the hiring requirements and it is not even required as working crew or DHing....read that again.
Now if you are a JetBlue non rev you are asked to help out. That is in our pass riding guide.
02-27-2016, 05:54 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Blue fifi flogger
Posts: 736
Originally Posted by GuardBummer
Im a tanker guy, but not Pease based, and I'm an E190 guy. I do not think we have flown together, because I have never been addressed regarding my willingness to help out in the back.
I have no problem with anyone who doesnt want to cross belts and clean up trash from seat backs. What I do have a problem with is a Captain going to pro standards on a FO because he decides to assist the FAs. Sure, you do this under the guise of missing Notams, etc., which is comical. Try this... How about holding all to the same standards based on their performance instead of trying to get someone talked to by pro standards because you dont like what they do during a turn.
Yes, I would go back to cleaning, as long as I had the time to complete a walk around or my preflight duties. I would do so only out of sight of the customers, which is my standard practice. Of all the battles one could pick, I think you could probably make a bigger impact with a more appropriate battle.
I have no problem with anyone who doesnt want to cross belts and clean up trash from seat backs. What I do have a problem with is a Captain going to pro standards on a FO because he decides to assist the FAs. Sure, you do this under the guise of missing Notams, etc., which is comical. Try this... How about holding all to the same standards based on their performance instead of trying to get someone talked to by pro standards because you dont like what they do during a turn.
Yes, I would go back to cleaning, as long as I had the time to complete a walk around or my preflight duties. I would do so only out of sight of the customers, which is my standard practice. Of all the battles one could pick, I think you could probably make a bigger impact with a more appropriate battle.
I don't think we're going to change each other's minds, but my last volley: I was an E190 CA until last year, so we may have crossed paths. If you re-read the exchange in the other thread, I stated I would ask (and respectfully point out the reasons why) that you defer cleaning between legs. That conversation would happen prior to getting Pro Stans involved. Some hypotheticals that have actually happened in my career here: you cleaned, while I checked the release, setup the cockpit and checked with the gate agent about jumpseaters. Now by the time you get to the walk around and notice the shattered taxi light lens or the leaking hydraulic line on the main gear brake assembly we're 10 minutes prior to departure with the customers mostly reboarded. Or I grabbed the walkaround while you cleaned, and by the time I returned to the cockpit we've begun re-boarding and you haven't reviewed the release yet and noticed we lack a required 2nd alternate. Or the LG No Dispatch EICAS that popped up and blended in with the 5 other messages that normally sit there with the door open and engines shut down.... Now I'm calling dispatch and getting the fueler back 10 minutes prior to departure, or trying to get MX control to get the contract guy out to the outstation on a Sunday afternoon. Or doing a full power-down and power-up with customers sitting on a dark, hot jet when it could have been done earlier. I can go on... Be honest with yourself: if you're the FO in this case, did you legitimately complete your preflight duties to the best of your abilities IAW the FOM time-management turn guideline? And do you now still think cleaning the cabin was the best use of your time as a professional pilot?
The ensuing maintenance or fueling delays could have been likely avoided, or incurred without customers on the jet, had you attended to your pilot duties first vs your perception of teamwork. If after I ask you to attend to those duties first and can reference my authority to do so, you still want to defy me to prove a point? Pro stans it is.
Finally, your LEC, MEC, and customers have made clear multiple times their stance on this issue. Regardless of how you think I present my position, why are you determined to buck all that data as well?
Last edited by aewanabe; 02-27-2016 at 06:23 PM.
02-27-2016, 06:11 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 468
If the airline pilots in the golden age of flying are rolling in their graves, then our bean counters are jumping for joy at some people's willingness to help do something that they arent getting paid for.
If we have time, we might as well go outside and help load bags.
If we have time, we might as well tag gate check bags.
If we have time, we might as well go hookup the fuel truck.
If we have time we might as well go help dump the lav.
If we have time, we might as well hookup our own ground power.
If we have time, we might as well help load the catering.
If we have time, we might as well help scan tickets during boarding.
It's all in the name of teamwork, right?
None of those are our job, nor is cleaning the cabin.
Also, if you were to seriously hurt yourself while cleaning (sharp object in seatback pocket or accidental face first fall, lets say) and needed to file for disability, workman's comp or filed a lawsuit, because of that, you better believe the company will be the first to argue that cleaning isn't in your job description.
I don't help clean, and I'm not ashamed to say it. I also have no problem NOT cleaning while the Captain cleans.
If we have time, we might as well go outside and help load bags.
If we have time, we might as well tag gate check bags.
If we have time, we might as well go hookup the fuel truck.
If we have time we might as well go help dump the lav.
If we have time, we might as well hookup our own ground power.
If we have time, we might as well help load the catering.
If we have time, we might as well help scan tickets during boarding.
It's all in the name of teamwork, right?
None of those are our job, nor is cleaning the cabin.
Also, if you were to seriously hurt yourself while cleaning (sharp object in seatback pocket or accidental face first fall, lets say) and needed to file for disability, workman's comp or filed a lawsuit, because of that, you better believe the company will be the first to argue that cleaning isn't in your job description.
I don't help clean, and I'm not ashamed to say it. I also have no problem NOT cleaning while the Captain cleans.
Last edited by clear4approach; 02-27-2016 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Clarify better, that I'm NOT cleaning
02-27-2016, 06:21 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: EMB145 CA
Posts: 484
Originally Posted by pilotpayne
It is not in the hiring requirements and it is not even required as working crew or DHing....read that again.
Now if you are a JetBlue non rev you are asked to help out. That is in our pass riding guide.
Now if you are a JetBlue non rev you are asked to help out. That is in our pass riding guide.
02-27-2016, 06:21 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 466
Our pilots or FAs don't clean the cabin. We have hired cleaners that board at the end of each flight and get it all sparkly clean! The company already has you at a bargain basement rate....why add insult to injury and clean the cabin when hired cabin cleaners should be doing it.....
02-27-2016, 06:27 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,206
Originally Posted by aewanabe
My apologies for assuming you were a Pease guy.
I don't think we're going to change each other's minds, but my last volley: I was an E190 CA until last year, so we may have crossed paths. If you re-read the exchange in the other thread, I stated I would ask (and respectfully point out the reasons why) that you defer cleaning between legs. That conversation would happen prior to getting Pro Stans involved. Some hypotheticals that have actually happened in my career here: you cleaned, while I checked the release, setup the cockpit and checked with the gate agent about jumpseaters. Now by the time you get to the walk around and notice the shattered taxi light lens or the leaking hydraulic line on the main gear brake assembly we're 10 minutes prior to departure with the customers mostly reboarded. Or I grabbed the walkaround while you cleaned, and by the time I returned to the cockpit we've begun re-boarding and you haven't reviewed the release yet and notice we lack a required 2nd alternate. Now I'm calling dispatch and getting the fueler back 10 minutes prior to departure. Be honest with yourself: if you're the FO in this case, did you legitimately complete your preflight duties to the best of your abilities IAW the FOM time-management turn guideline? And do you now still think cleaning the cabin was the best use of your time as a professional pilot?
The ensuing maintenance or fueling delays could have been likely avoided, or incurred without customers on the jet, had you attended to your pilot duties first vs your perception of teamwork. If after I ask you to attend to those duties first and can reference my authority to do so, you want to defy me to prove a point? Pro stans it is.
Finally, your LEC, MEC, and customers have made clear multiple times their stance on this issue. Regardless of how you think I present my position, why are you determined to buck all that data as well?
I don't think we're going to change each other's minds, but my last volley: I was an E190 CA until last year, so we may have crossed paths. If you re-read the exchange in the other thread, I stated I would ask (and respectfully point out the reasons why) that you defer cleaning between legs. That conversation would happen prior to getting Pro Stans involved. Some hypotheticals that have actually happened in my career here: you cleaned, while I checked the release, setup the cockpit and checked with the gate agent about jumpseaters. Now by the time you get to the walk around and notice the shattered taxi light lens or the leaking hydraulic line on the main gear brake assembly we're 10 minutes prior to departure with the customers mostly reboarded. Or I grabbed the walkaround while you cleaned, and by the time I returned to the cockpit we've begun re-boarding and you haven't reviewed the release yet and notice we lack a required 2nd alternate. Now I'm calling dispatch and getting the fueler back 10 minutes prior to departure. Be honest with yourself: if you're the FO in this case, did you legitimately complete your preflight duties to the best of your abilities IAW the FOM time-management turn guideline? And do you now still think cleaning the cabin was the best use of your time as a professional pilot?
The ensuing maintenance or fueling delays could have been likely avoided, or incurred without customers on the jet, had you attended to your pilot duties first vs your perception of teamwork. If after I ask you to attend to those duties first and can reference my authority to do so, you want to defy me to prove a point? Pro stans it is.
Finally, your LEC, MEC, and customers have made clear multiple times their stance on this issue. Regardless of how you think I present my position, why are you determined to buck all that data as well?
I know you think I have a problem with you not cleaning or whatever. I don't really care. When I'm operating I'd say I clean about 10% of the time due to not having enough time. If the FAs seem to expect it, I never clean. I do it only when I have time, and only as a courtesy, just like I did at my last carrier.
What I have a problem with is your attitude.
02-27-2016, 06:28 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by Aviatrx
It actually does. In the section titled "crew member expectations" it says "while working or traveling" you are expected to clean. I realize it doesn't say MUST CLEAN, but whatever.
02-27-2016, 07:03 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 244
Originally Posted by Aviatrx
It actually does. In the section titled "crew member expectations" it says "while working or traveling" you are expected to clean. I realize it doesn't say MUST CLEAN, but whatever.
Aircraft Cleaning. First Officers are not expected to assist in light cleaning of aircraft as a core function of their duties.
Nuff said.
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