Selected into JetBlue's ab initio program
04-11-2016 | 03:42 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 760
Likes: 0
From: JetRight, JetLeft
ALPA - hahahahahahhahahahaaaa.. They are too busy strengthening cockpit doors. They can't even get lithium battery shipments squashed and that is a no-brainer known danger that has caused many crashes. ALPA wastes HUGE amounts of money and simply has become a self-preservation organization of its own existence. They have a monopoly and they act like it.
You can do a hell of a lot more than ALPA by:
1) writing letters to the FAA (I speak from personal experience),
2) suing the FAA or companies,
3) educating the public,
4) joining consumer advocacy groups,
5) using the mainstream media to voice your opinions.
Personally I think we need to audit ALPA and do what we can do cut our union payments in half. We're simply not getting our money's worth. There are too many people that know only aviation and only the low performance of the industry to cite as status quo. ALPA makes a few incremental changes here and there but nothing they do is revolutionary. It is evolutionary but in geologic time. ALPA should've have deep sixxed Gateway 7 a long time ago. They simply do not have a warrior mindset. Think of how effective the teachers' unions are. Think of how effective McDonald's workers were in forcing their company to pay them $15/hr with NO UNION and no organization other than social media. Those are the kind of performance standards that I expect.
You can do a hell of a lot more than ALPA by:
1) writing letters to the FAA (I speak from personal experience),
2) suing the FAA or companies,
3) educating the public,
4) joining consumer advocacy groups,
5) using the mainstream media to voice your opinions.
Personally I think we need to audit ALPA and do what we can do cut our union payments in half. We're simply not getting our money's worth. There are too many people that know only aviation and only the low performance of the industry to cite as status quo. ALPA makes a few incremental changes here and there but nothing they do is revolutionary. It is evolutionary but in geologic time. ALPA should've have deep sixxed Gateway 7 a long time ago. They simply do not have a warrior mindset. Think of how effective the teachers' unions are. Think of how effective McDonald's workers were in forcing their company to pay them $15/hr with NO UNION and no organization other than social media. Those are the kind of performance standards that I expect.
FF workers get their $15/hr because nobody wants those jobs anymore.
Both teachers and FF workers can easily get sympathy from the general public. Airline pilots? Not so much, especially at the majors level.
Are you on the NM list?
GP
04-11-2016 | 05:02 PM
#84
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Good evening, everyone. Long-time lurker, first time poster. 
I hope my comments below don't come across as negative. Simply trying to better understand people's viewpoints on JB's program.
A common theme from opponents on this thread is simply because they've endured years of low pay and undesirable conditions, therefore, all aspiring pilots have to as well in order to be respected. Isn’t accepting that trend simply perpetuating the negative facets of the industry that experienced pilots on these forums complain about so openly?
I’m also unsure why some accept the idea that the regionals are a stepping stone. If you’re comfortable with a FO operating a SkyWest CRJ at 1,500 hours then there’s no reason the same shouldn’t apply to an E190 with a JetBlue logo on the tail. Regardless of airline, there are human lives at stake and the standard should be the same.
With that said, I do agree that if there are more experienced and qualified candidates readily waiting, those spots should always be given ahead of anyone going through an ab-initio program. I do not want a shortcut, but the current path towards a decent career in the airlines is so hard to stomach something has to change. Maybe life and pay in the regionals isn't as bad as they say, but I've browsed these forums long enough to know that it seems to be the consensus.
What I believe will inevitability happen, similar to what CTC and CAE already do in Europe, is that more airlines will employ similar ab-initio programs and begin covering part of the cost (unlike what JB are doing), reducing the burden for students while ensuring airlines have their rosters met. Maybe not in the next five years, but perhaps in 10-20 years.
Outside of this program, the current (and traditional) path for me is to continue training at my local flight school (where I've gone through three instructors), pay $50,000 more (added to my degree's debt), and accumulate 1,500 hours buzzing around the pattern in a 172. All the while being paid an hourly wage as a CFI, receive no training in CRM or airline operations, and then get hired by a Regional where I'll make $20,000-$40,000 less than the job I currently have and received out of college. Do this for 10 years until I'm lucky enough to get hired by a Major.
I understand experience and safety is paramount in aviation, but there has to be a better way to train and incentivize aspiring pilots.
Thanks.
I hope my comments below don't come across as negative. Simply trying to better understand people's viewpoints on JB's program.
A common theme from opponents on this thread is simply because they've endured years of low pay and undesirable conditions, therefore, all aspiring pilots have to as well in order to be respected. Isn’t accepting that trend simply perpetuating the negative facets of the industry that experienced pilots on these forums complain about so openly?
I’m also unsure why some accept the idea that the regionals are a stepping stone. If you’re comfortable with a FO operating a SkyWest CRJ at 1,500 hours then there’s no reason the same shouldn’t apply to an E190 with a JetBlue logo on the tail. Regardless of airline, there are human lives at stake and the standard should be the same.
With that said, I do agree that if there are more experienced and qualified candidates readily waiting, those spots should always be given ahead of anyone going through an ab-initio program. I do not want a shortcut, but the current path towards a decent career in the airlines is so hard to stomach something has to change. Maybe life and pay in the regionals isn't as bad as they say, but I've browsed these forums long enough to know that it seems to be the consensus.
What I believe will inevitability happen, similar to what CTC and CAE already do in Europe, is that more airlines will employ similar ab-initio programs and begin covering part of the cost (unlike what JB are doing), reducing the burden for students while ensuring airlines have their rosters met. Maybe not in the next five years, but perhaps in 10-20 years.
Outside of this program, the current (and traditional) path for me is to continue training at my local flight school (where I've gone through three instructors), pay $50,000 more (added to my degree's debt), and accumulate 1,500 hours buzzing around the pattern in a 172. All the while being paid an hourly wage as a CFI, receive no training in CRM or airline operations, and then get hired by a Regional where I'll make $20,000-$40,000 less than the job I currently have and received out of college. Do this for 10 years until I'm lucky enough to get hired by a Major.
I understand experience and safety is paramount in aviation, but there has to be a better way to train and incentivize aspiring pilots.
Thanks.
04-11-2016 | 05:20 PM
#85
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,080
Likes: 42
Good evening, everyone. Long-time lurker, first time poster.
I hope my comments below don't come across as negative. Simply trying to better understand people's viewpoints on JB's program.
A common theme from opponents on this thread is simply because they've endured years of low pay and undesirable conditions, therefore, all aspiring pilots have to as well in order to be respected. Isn’t accepting that trend simply perpetuating the negative facets of the industry that experienced pilots on these forums complain about so openly?
I’m also unsure why some accept the idea that the regionals are a stepping stone. If you’re comfortable with a FO operating a SkyWest CRJ at 1,500 hours then there’s no reason the same shouldn’t apply to an E190 with a JetBlue logo on the tail. Regardless of airline, there are human lives at stake and the standard should be the same.
With that said, I do agree that if there are more experienced and qualified candidates readily waiting, those spots should always be given ahead of anyone going through an ab-initio program. I do not want a shortcut, but the current path towards a decent career in the airlines is so hard to stomach something has to change. Maybe life and pay in the regionals isn't as bad as they say, but I've browsed these forums long enough to know that it seems to be the consensus.
What I believe will inevitability happen, similar to what CTC and CAE already do in Europe, is that more airlines will employ similar ab-initio programs and begin covering part of the cost (unlike what JB are doing), reducing the burden for students while ensuring airlines have their rosters met. Maybe not in the next five years, but perhaps in 10-20 years.
Outside of this program, the current (and traditional) path for me is to continue training at my local flight school (where I've gone through three instructors), pay $50,000 more (added to my degree's debt), and accumulate 1,500 hours buzzing around the pattern in a 172. All the while being paid an hourly wage as a CFI, receive no training in CRM or airline operations, and then get hired by a Regional where I'll make $20,000-$40,000 less than the job I currently have and received out of college. Do this for 10 years until I'm lucky enough to get hired by a Major.
I understand experience and safety is paramount in aviation, but there has to be a better way to train and incentivize aspiring pilots.
Thanks.
I hope my comments below don't come across as negative. Simply trying to better understand people's viewpoints on JB's program.
A common theme from opponents on this thread is simply because they've endured years of low pay and undesirable conditions, therefore, all aspiring pilots have to as well in order to be respected. Isn’t accepting that trend simply perpetuating the negative facets of the industry that experienced pilots on these forums complain about so openly?
I’m also unsure why some accept the idea that the regionals are a stepping stone. If you’re comfortable with a FO operating a SkyWest CRJ at 1,500 hours then there’s no reason the same shouldn’t apply to an E190 with a JetBlue logo on the tail. Regardless of airline, there are human lives at stake and the standard should be the same.
With that said, I do agree that if there are more experienced and qualified candidates readily waiting, those spots should always be given ahead of anyone going through an ab-initio program. I do not want a shortcut, but the current path towards a decent career in the airlines is so hard to stomach something has to change. Maybe life and pay in the regionals isn't as bad as they say, but I've browsed these forums long enough to know that it seems to be the consensus.
What I believe will inevitability happen, similar to what CTC and CAE already do in Europe, is that more airlines will employ similar ab-initio programs and begin covering part of the cost (unlike what JB are doing), reducing the burden for students while ensuring airlines have their rosters met. Maybe not in the next five years, but perhaps in 10-20 years.
Outside of this program, the current (and traditional) path for me is to continue training at my local flight school (where I've gone through three instructors), pay $50,000 more (added to my degree's debt), and accumulate 1,500 hours buzzing around the pattern in a 172. All the while being paid an hourly wage as a CFI, receive no training in CRM or airline operations, and then get hired by a Regional where I'll make $20,000-$40,000 less than the job I currently have and received out of college. Do this for 10 years until I'm lucky enough to get hired by a Major.
I understand experience and safety is paramount in aviation, but there has to be a better way to train and incentivize aspiring pilots.
Thanks.
You simply do not know what you do not know. You'll go to them on day 1 after IOE and likely be sharp with the systems, you will have your flows down and run a checklist quite well. I'm sure you will be very proficient on the box and manipulate the autopilot as good as the next guy. What you likely will not do is provide any real value should an outside the book abnormal arise. Weather avoidance? Ice? Windshear? Contaminated surfaces? You simply do not know because you have never been there, let alone been there potentially hundreds of times. I can say with confidence that 95%+ pilots there have and have real word advice based on real world experience. Youll get there but they may not have time for that. They need a second pilot NOW, not 2000 hours from now when you start to gain a modicum of experience. Its not even these big things, you will have no concept of how the flow of an airport like ORD or JFK operates, who to call, when to call, when to read back, when not. While not everyone has this experience, they have other experiences that catch them up to speed rather quickly. In the end, everyone will try to justify their choices. Everyone who participates in this gateway will justify it any way that they can. Just don't expect to be welcomed with open arms from the pilot group, they aren't your peers.
Last edited by usmc-sgt; 04-11-2016 at 05:39 PM.
04-11-2016 | 05:42 PM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 0
From: Left,Right, Left, Right,Right,Left, Right, Left
^^^usmcsgt^^^
Nails it.
The saving grace to this program, if you can even call it that, will be that by the time any of them makes it through and on line we should have at or above 5000 pilots. This would require 2000 retirements or 200 more airframes to see the left seat. On a time line 10-15 years to upgrade.
Nails it.
The saving grace to this program, if you can even call it that, will be that by the time any of them makes it through and on line we should have at or above 5000 pilots. This would require 2000 retirements or 200 more airframes to see the left seat. On a time line 10-15 years to upgrade.
04-11-2016 | 06:33 PM
#87
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
The current path is hard to stomach? That is what we call "experience." Nothing that is worth having comes easy and if it comes easy its not worth having. You aren't talking an entry level job here, you are talking a potential long term, high paying career. You think that should be obtainable with 150k and a pulse? The regionals are what they are and yes, they put people right seat at 1500 hours in a jet. This has unfortunately become an accepted risk because there is simply no other option. The majors demand better, the passengers demand better and your captain will demand better.
You simply do not know what you do not know. You'll go to them on day 1 after IOE and likely be sharp with the systems, you will have your flows down and run a checklist quite well. I'm sure you will be very proficient on the box and manipulate the autopilot as good as the next guy. What you likely will not do is provide any real value should an outside the book abnormal arise. Weather avoidance? Ice? Windshear? Contaminated surfaces? You simply do not know because you have never been there, let alone been there potentially hundreds of times. I can say with confidence that 95%+ pilots there have and have real word advice based on real world experience. Youll get there but they may not have time for that. They need a second pilot NOW, not 2000 hours from now when you start to gain a modicum of experience. Its not even these big things, you will have no concept of how the flow of an airport like ORD or JFK operates, who to call, when to call, when to read back, when not. While not everyone has this experience, they have other experiences that catch them up to speed rather quickly. In the end, everyone will try to justify their choices. Everyone who participates in this gateway will justify it any way that they can. Just don't expect to be welcomed with open arms from the pilot group, they aren't your peers.
You simply do not know what you do not know. You'll go to them on day 1 after IOE and likely be sharp with the systems, you will have your flows down and run a checklist quite well. I'm sure you will be very proficient on the box and manipulate the autopilot as good as the next guy. What you likely will not do is provide any real value should an outside the book abnormal arise. Weather avoidance? Ice? Windshear? Contaminated surfaces? You simply do not know because you have never been there, let alone been there potentially hundreds of times. I can say with confidence that 95%+ pilots there have and have real word advice based on real world experience. Youll get there but they may not have time for that. They need a second pilot NOW, not 2000 hours from now when you start to gain a modicum of experience. Its not even these big things, you will have no concept of how the flow of an airport like ORD or JFK operates, who to call, when to call, when to read back, when not. While not everyone has this experience, they have other experiences that catch them up to speed rather quickly. In the end, everyone will try to justify their choices. Everyone who participates in this gateway will justify it any way that they can. Just don't expect to be welcomed with open arms from the pilot group, they aren't your peers.
My first instructor, before pay increased, made just over $20,000 a year a couple of years ago starting at SkyWest (EMB 120, I believe they've phased them out since). I'm not asking for a handout or a golden ticket, I'm simply stating that type of wage is unacceptable for people today (or ten years ago), especially after incurring significant debt. That's a perfectly reasonable position to have. I'm not alone in this and there are countless articles and threads on this.
If you've accepted that's just how it is, then we'll likely never make much progress on this front and the status-quo will continue.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the experience front. I will say, however, there are thousands of regional flights operating daily that fly in those conditions and at those airports. If you're saying every day there are American regional pilots putting thousands of lives at significantly more risk, then I think you know as well as I do that change needs to happen.
04-11-2016 | 06:50 PM
#88
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
My first instructor, before pay increased, made just over $20,000 a year a couple of years ago starting at SkyWest (EMB 120, I believe they've phased them out since). I'm not asking for a handout or a golden ticket, I'm simply stating that type of wage is unacceptable for people today (or ten years ago), especially after incurring significant debt. That's a perfectly reasonable position to have. I'm not alone in this and there are countless articles and threads on this.
If you've accepted that's just how it is, then we'll likely never make much progress on this front and the status-quo will continue.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the experience front. I will say, however, there are thousands of regional flights operating daily that fly in those conditions and at those airports. If you're saying every day there are American regional pilots putting thousands of lives at significantly more risk, then I think you know as well as I do that change needs to happen.
If you've accepted that's just how it is, then we'll likely never make much progress on this front and the status-quo will continue.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the experience front. I will say, however, there are thousands of regional flights operating daily that fly in those conditions and at those airports. If you're saying every day there are American regional pilots putting thousands of lives at significantly more risk, then I think you know as well as I do that change needs to happen.
04-12-2016 | 01:00 AM
#89
SDQ Base Chief
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,079
Likes: 41
From: 320 CA
It's just the next phase of the industry hiring. It sucks for those of us who didn't have the option of the Gateway Select path, but it is what it is. Just understand what those before you went through.
Those who are now paying $125k for a job at JetBlue will feel the same thing 20 years from now when JetBlue is offering $125k bonuses and fully paid training for any new cadets!
Those who are now paying $125k for a job at JetBlue will feel the same thing 20 years from now when JetBlue is offering $125k bonuses and fully paid training for any new cadets!
04-12-2016 | 01:30 AM
#90
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,080
Likes: 42
So your answer to ending substandard regional wages is to pay 150k for a major job? So with the big push to $15 minimum wage there is a solution. Pay 150k and be guaranteed a job running a McDonald's. Problem solved, no more substandard hourly rate.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
wannabepilot
Flight Schools and Training
34
07-07-2008 12:15 PM
