TonyC

If you were just waving your flag in favor of being a carpenter, there would be no issue. You don't stop there. You insist that aviation is an inferior life choice, and not worth the investment.

Don and I are here to dispute that assertion.

You said compatible, I think you meant comparable. In a way, you're correct. Aviation isn't comparable to other professions -- it's unique, and to those of us who desire it, it's far superior. In fact, the word incomparable fits perfectly -- eminent beyond comparison.







.

USMCFLYR

Kind of hard for me to flag wave since I don't even have a job in the professional aviation business. I say that it is a viable career and it is a career that if you have the drive, determination, skills and some luck then it can be successful. I have to believe that to some extent or I wouldn't be wanting to enter the field myself. I'm not sure what your definition of flag waving is.....but if it means that I don't warn off every high schooler who dreams of someday being a pilot then I guess you can count me in that group.

USMCFLYR

Cubdriver

Thanks for sharing your personal history, Tony Montana. It's reassuring to hear of when someone came to a point of realizing they were at a dead end yet had the wherewithal to move toward something better and were willing to give up the fruits of often hard-won prior accomplishments. Out of disappointment and hardships one may develop the conviction to work toward something better without knowing if it is possible, and if a change is to be successful there must be a sincere reformulation of the self toward the new goal and there must also be an opportunity. The new self will be happier but I think the thing is to be aware that it is not the new lifestyle you are after. Improving the self is the real business. That alone will ultimately bring lasting satisfaction; money and respect are ok but I loathe a day when I cannot find joy within my own heart and mind, something up to me alone. Changing careers is only one form of this expression.

Cubdriver

Wups I didn't mean to kill this thread. I just thought TM was being nice to share what made him leave and why. I am for people doing what makes them happiest whether it be to stay or to leave. I'll shut up now

de727ups

"Medical Sales, Pharm Sales"

There is a guy at JC who owned his own plane and was in pharmaceutical sales. He left to fly for Xjet for about a year, couldn't take the pay cut, and got back into it. I think it's more of a sales thing than having to need a lot of medical training. More about personality. If someone with an aviation degree is looking to leave the career and get into the health biz, I'd look more into the sales end as I don't think you need a lot of heavy medical schooling.

"DE727UPS like to flag wave in favor of an aviation career"

Sky, show me a thread I've started promoting the career (zero). Let's compare that to you starting threads bashing the career (only gawd knows). I only come here to refute the inaccuracies and misstatements I see in your posts. Unfortunatley, that sometimes causes me to post a lot....

buggs

This is great. People should leave the career. The lower supply of labor the better. Good luck and continue to tell your friends not to make flying a career.

Careercfi

See Mr. UPS, "Back by popular demand" - I think some strange Italian politcian said that too one day!

Thats what I am talking about.
One infraction, and one warning into my stay here (one for being put on prozac by a selfdeclared "doctor" I did not choose to be mine, one for asking that same person again and again and again why he is not treating patients, rather than bashing this industry). So TM makes a "comeback" to rush to the help of a perfectly capable Sky, who has amazed hundreds with his philosophy and world view. Sky earns respect by explaining himself, though.

USMCFLYR, thanks for speaking my mind as well with this.
The fact is that TM & Sky enjoy a fairly large crowd of readers (I believe most of them are looking for entertainment) and there is never a lack of discussion or disagreement. After all it takes quite some problem to assume making an impact on peoples lives by bashing an industry.

Not every person getting into this industry is on parents financial support to begin with. This industry (at least on the non pilots side) has rewarded me dearly for being openminded and ready for it. All this can end with the next medical, so I need to be ready to jump when it's time for it.

If (and this is hypothetical) TM & Sky would make a difference and where so extremely well off after changing careers, they would be spending 100K a year each on touring the country and giving beginners an inside scoop on what is ahead of them. With credible information, rather than a personal lifestory gone sideways. They would have and foster some sort of credibility that goes beyond the "statements" of being self employed or now a MD. For all I know, what we have dominating the career changer section are two selfdeclared professionals making statements as to why flying for a living will destroy every upright walking man or woman. I yet have to find a single piece of advise in here that can be applied to every pilot currently working the line. It will eeventually arrive at the point where some hospital janitor in New York makes more money and has more benefits. There is no end to it

True words Sky! Yet, I fail to see where you have been elected the "knowitall" that can serve as a standard for telling them what is right. Your life history is as non standard as TM's and if you are truly telling people to leave a career they have chosen, you could be accused of attempted brainwashing. Nothing you say hurts the industry, the people out there are humming and flying. They return from flying, pop in here and get entertained with "those good old days" stories Barry Schiff likes to force upon people. They do what they have to, to make ends meet. Some are happy, some are not.

What happened to you (9/11 is always in the backround) is not indicative of what is happening to people in this job in 2008. 9/11 may still serve as a good excuse for what seems to be the full rudder needed to have gotten this country and it's people into the flatspin it is in today. Some have recovered. It appears to me, as if pilots grow on trees. People are willing to do this job for next to nothing. Airlines have no reason to hire much experience or to look closer at their applicants motives and values. There are just too many of them. A few months ago that was different, and a few months from now it will be different again.

To keep it in perspective, I know TM does not ever answer my questions, he does only to a selected few, maybe someone can translate these questions into his "high level player" lingo:

1. What do you tell a ATP student just starting out on his path towards $65.000 in debt (in 90% of the cases) into a career flying?

2. What do you tell a 1st year FO that is in the process of loosing his job, with a bunch of debt and nowhere to go?

Are you telling them to get the schoolbooks back out and go to college?
If so, what do you suggest? Carpentry? Nursing? Paralegal Science? Medicine? Join the Military? Some of them are so broke, they don't know where the next food is coming from. Some of them are plain stupid and lucky to have gotten selected in the first place. Some of them are extremely fine characters and very nice (example) people to boot.

I believe if you are talking to people frequenting APC you are either talking to people who have accepted that this industry is what it is, or you are talking to people who are looking for advise. They don't ask, they just look. I don't advertise this career at all, I just refuse to call hundreds of thousands of people in this country and in this industry idiots for doing this job. It takes a lot of commitment and sacrifices. I know some people are not able to bring that to the table, and most of them drop out.
Look at the Marines: Not everyone will make it through boot camp. Is that a reason to go out and bash the Marines?
People deserve to find that out for themselves and not make clouded decisions based on advise made by people wo have not been active participants in this industry for almost 7 years. Nobody listens to Barry Schiff and he is one of the few that made it big.

atpwannabe

Some very poignant exchanges going on here. I love it. This is what forums, pariticularly APC, should be all about.

First let me say that I believe that both Sky & TonyM have alot to contribute to those who just may be starting out. They warn the naive and those of lesser experience of the landmines, pitfalls and sandbars that could potentially shipwreck a dream, a marriage or even worse...a career. I also believe that quite a few of those who catagorize themselves as professional pilots here at APC have experienced some of the downturns that both Sky and TonyM have talked about and are not willing to admit that they have. It's ok. That's their perogative.

On the other hand, those here at APC and others who have made the choice to enter the field and stay come hell or high water have my and others utmost admiration and respect.

I'm sure each and every one of us have our attention not only focused on the airline industry, but the entire economy as a whole. Just take long hard look and see what your 401K is worth today . We've all heard and see what disarray our financial markets are in. This has a far reaching affect and those who made the decision and are able to "stand firm" in the face of this "roaring lion" is a personality characteristic that is forged & formed by perservering through tough times.


Just my .02!!!



P.S. - TonyM, a great story. Homelessness...yeah...I know about it!!!



atp

TonyMontana

First and foremost-thank you for your service to our country.

But like you say in a later post, you don't have a job in this industry-get yourself one and then you'll gain a clearer understanding.

I attack no one here-these are my experiences and my perspectives. No one lived them but me. I have made new friends here, and have helped numerous pilots looking for an alternative life for self and family, isn't that the "basis" of this whole forum?

As far as attacking the industry-pilots are under assault everyday-and not by me. It's the old supply and demand theory-ex.

a) Life on the "demand" side is GREAT.

b) Life on the supply side-anything but great.


As an Airline Pilot-you'll never launch on a marginal destination without an alternate. My position is that you would be wise to have an alternate source of income if you intend to "launch" an aviation career today. I believe Ca. Barry Schiff said something along these lines too.

TonyMontana

Exactly my point-some guys here think that their 4 year aviation degree is worthless, and really all the Pharm co.s want is "a 4 year degree", I know because I asked my rep from Lilly what was needed to get a job there.

There is a short training period there, but not that much. Something that some of these guys could step into pretty quickly if they so desired.