U/LCC to a Legacy — Was It Worth It?
01-06-2022, 11:31 PM
#31
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: B-777 Captain
Posts: 99
Well I’m at Atlas so not an ULCC but here’s my take. I just interviewed and received offers from AA and UPS. I turned both down after a painstaking amount of consideration. My main factors were:
I’m 42, I live in base, I’ve been at 5Y for 11 years, have been in the left seat of the 767 for 6 of those years. I generally hold my 1st, 2nd or 3rd bid line choice. I haven’t worked a single holiday in over 5 years. My schedule is usually week on/week off with layovers often in base so I’m rarely away from home more than 2 days. I genuinely have loved the flying here from day 1. Even on the 747 which is harder on your body.
With 22 years to go I could still make a half way decent career at a legacy/UPS/FDX. But being in the top 20% of the seniority list here do I want to start all over at the bottom of 14,000 pilots? I’ll be 50 when I upgrade. Any move would lead to some degree of decrease in QOL.
Our new CBA was generally disappointing to our pilot group but it’s just enough to keep most of the senior half of the list on property. Now they’ve come back to the table with LTD and improved work rules. I think management is starting to see the writing on the wall. All this said, I bid for the 777 in the latest system bid so I may regret it.
The point of my rant is that pilots are always assuming the grass is greener somewhere else. Everyone’s circumstances are different. Where you live, your age, family situation…they’re all factors. The CFI who taught me how to fly has been at Spirit for 26 years. He’s been happy from day 1. Like him, commuting to ATL or ORD three times a month sounds like torture. I think we’re all just hopeful our career decisions don’t blow up in our face.
I’m 42, I live in base, I’ve been at 5Y for 11 years, have been in the left seat of the 767 for 6 of those years. I generally hold my 1st, 2nd or 3rd bid line choice. I haven’t worked a single holiday in over 5 years. My schedule is usually week on/week off with layovers often in base so I’m rarely away from home more than 2 days. I genuinely have loved the flying here from day 1. Even on the 747 which is harder on your body.
With 22 years to go I could still make a half way decent career at a legacy/UPS/FDX. But being in the top 20% of the seniority list here do I want to start all over at the bottom of 14,000 pilots? I’ll be 50 when I upgrade. Any move would lead to some degree of decrease in QOL.
Our new CBA was generally disappointing to our pilot group but it’s just enough to keep most of the senior half of the list on property. Now they’ve come back to the table with LTD and improved work rules. I think management is starting to see the writing on the wall. All this said, I bid for the 777 in the latest system bid so I may regret it.
The point of my rant is that pilots are always assuming the grass is greener somewhere else. Everyone’s circumstances are different. Where you live, your age, family situation…they’re all factors. The CFI who taught me how to fly has been at Spirit for 26 years. He’s been happy from day 1. Like him, commuting to ATL or ORD three times a month sounds like torture. I think we’re all just hopeful our career decisions don’t blow up in our face.
01-07-2022, 04:09 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 1,035
Originally Posted by symbian simian
I’m not stupid (feel free to disagree), but I really don’t understand why the insurance company/Spirit wouldn’t push for at least a partial offset. Apparently they think they should not have to pay a cent for every cent that I am capable of making, and I understand that, but where is the motivation for me to even try working? If I would lose half a dollar of my LTD for every (after tax) dollar I made with a side job, both the insurance and I would come out ahead. Is it ALPA holding out for 0 offset that is the problem? I mean, that would be great, but if it’s never going to happen…. Not negotiating in public, but would have liked a survey question “would you take a 50% offset, company DC contribution, health insurance till Medicare, over the current plan”.
01-07-2022, 05:29 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 699
Originally Posted by ACMIguy
With 22 years to go I could still make a half way decent career at a legacy/UPS/FDX
I suspect you’d come out the other side in slightly better financial shape at 65, but those first 5 years would be very different than your current lifestyle.
01-07-2022, 07:06 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,113
Originally Posted by ACMIguy
Well I’m at Atlas so not an ULCC but here’s my take. I just interviewed and received offers from AA and UPS. I turned both down after a painstaking amount of consideration. My main factors were:
I’m 42, I live in base, I’ve been at 5Y for 11 years, have been in the left seat of the 767 for 6 of those years. I generally hold my 1st, 2nd or 3rd bid line choice. I haven’t worked a single holiday in over 5 years. My schedule is usually week on/week off with layovers often in base so I’m rarely away from home more than 2 days. I genuinely have loved the flying here from day 1. Even on the 747 which is harder on your body.
With 22 years to go I could still make a half way decent career at a legacy/UPS/FDX. But being in the top 20% of the seniority list here do I want to start all over at the bottom of 14,000 pilots? I’ll be 50 when I upgrade. Any move would lead to some degree of decrease in QOL.
Our new CBA was generally disappointing to our pilot group but it’s just enough to keep most of the senior half of the list on property. Now they’ve come back to the table with LTD and improved work rules. I think management is starting to see the writing on the wall. All this said, I bid for the 777 in the latest system bid so I may regret it.
The point of my rant is that pilots are always assuming the grass is greener somewhere else. Everyone’s circumstances are different. Where you live, your age, family situation…they’re all factors. The CFI who taught me how to fly has been at Spirit for 26 years. He’s been happy from day 1. Like him, commuting to ATL or ORD three times a month sounds like torture. I think we’re all just hopeful our career decisions don’t blow up in our face.
I’m 42, I live in base, I’ve been at 5Y for 11 years, have been in the left seat of the 767 for 6 of those years. I generally hold my 1st, 2nd or 3rd bid line choice. I haven’t worked a single holiday in over 5 years. My schedule is usually week on/week off with layovers often in base so I’m rarely away from home more than 2 days. I genuinely have loved the flying here from day 1. Even on the 747 which is harder on your body.
With 22 years to go I could still make a half way decent career at a legacy/UPS/FDX. But being in the top 20% of the seniority list here do I want to start all over at the bottom of 14,000 pilots? I’ll be 50 when I upgrade. Any move would lead to some degree of decrease in QOL.
Our new CBA was generally disappointing to our pilot group but it’s just enough to keep most of the senior half of the list on property. Now they’ve come back to the table with LTD and improved work rules. I think management is starting to see the writing on the wall. All this said, I bid for the 777 in the latest system bid so I may regret it.
The point of my rant is that pilots are always assuming the grass is greener somewhere else. Everyone’s circumstances are different. Where you live, your age, family situation…they’re all factors. The CFI who taught me how to fly has been at Spirit for 26 years. He’s been happy from day 1. Like him, commuting to ATL or ORD three times a month sounds like torture. I think we’re all just hopeful our career decisions don’t blow up in our face.
01-07-2022, 09:19 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,103
Originally Posted by hercretired
and your "painstaking consideration" was not done before interviewing with them ?
I believe they just got a contract and it sounds like management is coming back offering more improvements to keep attrition to a min. That’s the good news here. Maybe during negotiations he filled out apps and shortly before they inked the new agreement he was called for the interview? Just a guess.
01-07-2022, 01:40 PM
#36
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: B-777 Captain
Posts: 99
Originally Posted by fcoolaiddrinker
I believe they just got a contract and it sounds like management is coming back offering more improvements to keep attrition to a min. That’s the good news here. Maybe during negotiations he filled out apps and shortly before they inked the new agreement he was called for the interview? Just a guess.
You nailed it. Now that they’ve come to the table with more it’s tougher decision. The day after my brown interview they announced adding LTD and increased 401k contribution. That’s huge.
01-08-2022, 02:23 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by CAirBear
Its really simple. People don’t realize what they have, in terms of QOL, until it’s gone. We absolutely have had guys at Spirit make the jump to the Big 3 and regret it. Sure do they make a bit more (currently - which will change) sure. Does it really F’n matter when both pilots retire with millions in their 401k? 🤷🏻♂️ I will have worked one trip the last 28 days when I come back to work in Jan. I didn’t even drop/swap anything.
I havent even hit 3 years I was legitimately awarded 13 days off over Xmas at NK. (News flash - I’m not ultra senior). Please enlighten me how many decades to hold 2 weeks off over Xmas at the “Bigs”. I’ll wait.
If you actually study airlines, especially those that grow, and their contracts, it’s pretty clear what’s ahead for the big ULCC players. I won’t waste time arguing with anyone though.
I don’t even have kids (or a wife) although I guess a loooong term GF counts, but the older I get (still in my 30s) the more QOL and flexibility matter. For some it’s always about money. Have at it. But as I said earlier. No matter where you go, with a DC of 15-16% BOTH are going to retire with more money than they can do with.
I havent even hit 3 years I was legitimately awarded 13 days off over Xmas at NK. (News flash - I’m not ultra senior). Please enlighten me how many decades to hold 2 weeks off over Xmas at the “Bigs”. I’ll wait.
If you actually study airlines, especially those that grow, and their contracts, it’s pretty clear what’s ahead for the big ULCC players. I won’t waste time arguing with anyone though.
I don’t even have kids (or a wife) although I guess a loooong term GF counts, but the older I get (still in my 30s) the more QOL and flexibility matter. For some it’s always about money. Have at it. But as I said earlier. No matter where you go, with a DC of 15-16% BOTH are going to retire with more money than they can do with.
01-08-2022, 03:07 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2020
Posts: 2,189
Originally Posted by sailingfun
With the current rate of hiring pilots at Delta can expect to hold all holidays off before the end of their first year if the remain a narrow body copilot. I suspect it is the same at most majors.
01-09-2022, 07:12 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by sailingfun
With the current rate of hiring pilots at Delta can expect to hold all holidays off before the end of their first year if the remain a narrow body copilot. I suspect it is the same at most majors.
01-10-2022, 08:32 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by Amike
LAX320B disagrees.
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