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>>>>“Just look at the auto industry in the US to see where Boeing will end up if it continues. Constant bail outs and worse products. 🤦‍♂️“

I can’t recall another time in my decades alive that cars were better. Cars now are safer, quieter, more comfortable, more economical, better handling, and better equipped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WHACKMASTER (Post 3393059)

Precisely. If the airplane is pulling the yolk out of your hands effing TRIM!! These autopilot monkeys were trying to reengage the damn autopilot.

Ew! Yolk on their hands??? That’s gross!!!

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Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3393128)

But autopilot monkeys are what operates much of the global air transport fleet. That's just the way it is, and no amount of teeth gnashing will change it one bit. If BCA was very selective as to who they sold the max to, would they gotten away with this? Quite possibly. It would have manifested eventually for sure, with a single point of failure. But likely without any fatalities and then it would have just been an AD, not an existential crisis. But that's not really a realistic approach to business now is it? Especially given the competition...

We can count ourselves fortunate that we have enough cultural and institutional inertia here in the US that we won't be downgrading to MPL any time soon... even if airlines have to pay for primary training.

Pretty much agreed with all of this. I’m not Chuck Yeager’s second coming but let’s just be blunt….most U.S. pilots would have had a better chance at coming out of those MCAS events alive. That point I hope no one argues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EyeKantEven (Post 3393202)

Ew! Yolk on their hands??? That’s gross!!!

Lol. I see what you did there. Yolk would be rather disgusting. A yoke on the other hand….

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Originally Posted by WHACKMASTER (Post 3393208)

kind of a meaningless point. Boeing creating a failure mode and pilots just hand-waving it expecting to just train out the problem is HORRIBLE design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 3393128)

Mmm hmm.

"...in Indonesian simulators, there are sometimes seven in there: two pilots flying, one instructing and four others standing up and logging the time."

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnwick (Post 3393120)

Easy there Charles Lindbergh, I’m sure they were trying to trim. But in the 737 (maybe other aircraft), if you are applying significant force on the yoke in the opposite direction of the trimmed condition (ie nose down trim and pulling back very hard on the yoke), the trim wheel is very difficult, if not impossible to move without releasing the back pressure in this instance. I’ve flown a variety of aircraft in my life, and I’m not aware of any other aircraft to which releasing the pressure on the yoke/stick was a requirement to move the trim. I suppose if you’ve flown the 737 you’re entire life, you’d be aware of it. But its not instinctual or natural. And maybe they thought that putting the AP on would help the out-of-trim situation, as it has its own servo. JMO

They were not trimming, except for the Lion Air Captain, he was without difficulty; the FDR clearly shows that. Yes, the trim wheel is hard to move under high aerodynamic loads but guess what? They didn't need to use the trim wheel, the main electric trim was functional and trimming out a nose down condition (trimming nose up) while pulling back is not only natural, but quite easy. The main electric trim was available the entire time for Lion Air and available up till the time turned it off for Ethiopian. If Ethiopian had followed either of the checklists they were told to run in the AD they would not have needed to use the trim wheel. The trim wheel is also a little hard to use when you are going 420 knots. That is well beyond the operational envelope of the aircraft. Never bothering to even touch the throttles during a flight will do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OOfff (Post 3393216)

kind of a meaningless point. Boeing creating a failure mode and pilots just hand-waving it expecting to just train out the problem is HORRIBLE design.

So are you saying pilots should not be trained to handle emergencies?

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Originally Posted by Texasbound (Post 3393293)

So are you saying pilots should not be trained to handle emergencies?

I’m saying that airplanes should not be designed with problems you have to train out. MCAS added a failure mode that could (and should) have been engineered out at the hardware (in HF terms) level.

Didn’t they have the autopilot on pretty much immediately after takeoff? If I remember (haven’t read it in a long time), they trained to put the autopilot on very quickly after takeoff—much sooner than 737 operators around here at least. Unless I’m in complicated/extra high workload ops, I’m usually hand flying up to around 10K. Also, if everything goes to hell the second the flaps are up…throttle back and get the flaps back out to 1. But maybe a 200 hour pilot wouldn’t think that way. You know…flying stuff.