You can see where they are coming from which makes them a target as well.

Absolutely a KC as applied to US persons. I have no faith or trust in such things, especially if applied to US persons. Way too many competing motives, agendas, allegiances, corruption, etc.

There is no crime over which ICC claims jurisdiction, that the US doesn't have some similar legal remedy. Or if there is, there's a reason we don't (ex. some nations have robust "hate speech" laws, which basically apply to whatever dissent their regime wants to silent). We can (and should) try our own citizens. No interest in World Government, thanks.

Right place and right time, he lucked out.

They decided they needed him as a unifying figurehead to help get the people behind the new government. This despite very strong sentiment amongst the allies that he be treated as a war criminal.

It helped his case that his support for the war had been anemic all along, and that he was actively trying to negotiate surrender terms before Hiroshima.

Could you provide some proof to your extraordinary allegation?



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Trump admitted to a plan to give arms to opposition groups in Iran during the protests. If the US was actively trying to arm them, it's reasonable to assume that CIA/mossad also stoked the anti-regime dissent to the greatest extent possible.

The CIA was also disseminating misinformation to the Iranians to misdirect their efforts to capture the downed WSO. If they were able to disseminate this info among the Iranians during the war, who knows what they were up to during the protests and in the months leading up to the war.

Obviously there was a group they wanted to give the guns to, and the plan failed. I could see promises to be given weapons incentivizing the opposition to resist. Not unreasonable to think that the CIA/mossad were monitoring and most likely meddling in the situation on the ground.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/insig...11&uxmode=ruby

https://www.timesofisrael.com/im-ver...were-diverted/

Agree. Not a company job. No way.
The enemy simply doesn’t share temporal pursuits as do we and values life less. Much less. But they get terror as trade leverage quite well. Dedicated as any adversary in that regard.

Because it has no jurisdiction over Americans. Although Clinton signed on to the Rome Statute establishing the ICC on the last possible day, after 18 months of saying he wouldn’t, the court at the time did not have enough countries ratifying (60 were required) to go into effect, even had the US Senate approved it p, which they never did. In 2002 President Bush withdrew presidential approval before the 60 country ratification requirement was ever met so there it sits ever since. Nobody can legally extradite any US citizen to the court under US law, making it essentially a kangaroo court for US legal purposes.

if Israel didn’t value human life in Gaza there would not be anyone to ask.

Tragic but true. Any enemy who orders a boy hostage executed with an arm already taken, only as some twisted symbol of faith, requires no further explanation. Paying 50% more for a gallon of gas is a very modest short term sacrifice.

What does this even mean?

Because Israel has only killed 70,000 civilians instead of killing all 2 million residents of Gaza, they should be commended?


Approximately 450,000 people were liberated from concentration camps in WW2. You must also think that regime valued human life; if they didn't there would not be anyone to ask.

They weren’t going to be there for long. Shame

Collateral damage.

If the gaza residents didn't elect literal terrorists to run their government, and if the terrorists didn't hide under schools, mosques, hospitals, etc maybe there would be less collateral damage.

True: US has not ratified ICC treaty.

False: ICC would agree that it has no jurisdiction over US citizens. There are a couple mechanisms under it's rules where it might claim jurisdiction. To date, political realities have discouraged them from trying, but that would change with a compliant administration in the US.

They don't try to claim said jurisdiction either.

It's more than sufficiently flawed in my observation to qualify for the marsupial family. That's not to say that *everything* they do is bad, doubtless they've prosecuted the odd warlord or arms dealer who really had it coming.



Don't care, collateral damage.

There's no way you have any idea whether there was an "easily avoidable" failure (of if you do, you're violating all kinds of laws by posting it on the internet).

But there will be an investigation... if there was an egregious, negligent omission (beyond fog of war) there will be consequences.


More than the gazans value jewish life, that's readily apparent.

When was the last election, and what percentage of the population of Gaza was of voting age when that election took place?

Even if they did elect Hamas today, how can you hold it against them? Violence is a pretty natural response to apartheid states. Ideally both sides could deescalate the conflict, but both parties obtain their power by ensuring the fighting continues. The citizens on both sides are the losers.

https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-ham...October%202023.

"Qatar actually started transferring money to Hamas in 2012, though this was via bank wires and it was very small amounts. This changed fundamentally in 2018, when Netanyahu persuaded his cabinet to approve bigger transfers and change the mechanism of transfer to cash. After that, a car carrying suitcases full of almost $30 million in cash would pass through Rafah Crossing every month from the summer of 2018 until October 2023."

I'm sorry but it's 2026 and now the whole world knows that Hamas is literally funded and run by IL. Hamas = controlled opposition to keep the fight going in order to justify the continued war crimes against the Palestinian people and the destruction of their homes/lives. The evidence is already out there. Millions of dollars sent from Bibi via Qatar to prop up Hamas. [mod edit]

The last legitimate election, Hamas, before becoming just literal terrorists, barely won. But immediately after they did, they jailed all opposition then dismantled their elections. It's intellectually dishonest to claim that Palestinians are out here just voting unanimously for Hamas

Why were they all in the streets cheering as young female hostages were being dragged, beaten and killed right in front of them?

Interesting take. If genocide is the goal Israel is sure doing a horrible job of it.

Population of the State of Palestine:
2026 (Projected): ~5.87 million (PCBS estimate)
2025 (Projected): 5.59 million
2024: 5.49 million
2023: 5.40 million
2022: 5.30 million
2021: 4.92 million

First genocide in history where the population actually grows

Back on topic, assuming Iran is “bombed back into the Stone Age”, GCC energy/desalination infrastructure damaged in retaliation, and strait remains closed, what are short/long term predictions for oil/jet fuel/economy?

Nice projection. Nobody is defending the horrendous Jihadist regime in Iran or denying that they murdered their citizens. A spark and fire are two different things. We are discussing what is actually happening and how best to handle it. One would think we might want to learn some lessons from Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan where blind following didn't work out so well. What is that definition of insanity again?

On second thought, everybody said their peace re. Gaza, so let's drop that since while they started the war they're irrelevant at this point, it's taken on a life of it's own.

Same as it ever was. Our message clear. Why they refuse to comply clear. Contest of wills as the price climbs until one of us relents. Us, more likely than not. So to answer your question, quite insane.

Do you think of the Nuremberg trials as illegitimate?
That the defeated leadership of Germany was put on trial by jurists and judges of the Victor's make it a kangaroo court?

Or was it an attempt to apply some sort of justice and legal framework regarding monstrous crimes committed against Mankind and the very concepts of civilization? An assertion that there should be some basic fundamental way to adjudicate obvious evil, even if it hadn't previously been legally articulated?

We (as in Mankind) are unraveling the lessons of Nuremberg when we assert that the ICC lacks jurisdiction. Or that national chauvanism should triumph over both evil and justice.

Let's drop this in this thread. The original discussion was about Trump's motives, which might be influenced by lawfare. Nuremburg is not relevant to that.

They’ve always been literal terrorists, at least for the decade prior to them being voted in by the people.

But there is a whole chicken/egg thing going on there.

Election integrity is always an issue, despite the deniers. The President of Uganda has recently been re-elected. That’s been going on since he first came to power in 1986. The election was undoubtedly crooked but since he replaced Idi Amin the people are inclined to be tolerant knowing they could do a lot worse.

What makes you think we didn't? We are not even two months in. Take a breath.

Six hours ago…
 

Oil prices jump after news that U.S. struck Iran's Kharg Island

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/i...ve_kopack.avif
Steve KopackThe price of U.S. crude oil jumped more than 3% to nearly $116 per barrel, after the first reports that the U.S. struck Kharg Island, from which Iran exports 90% of its crude oil. A U.S. official confirmed the strikes to NBC News, but said the strikes did not involve oil assets.

Brent crude oil also jumped to more than $110 per barrel.

U.S. stock futures also declined to their lows of the morning, with the S&P 500 showing a drop of more than 0.5%, on renewed fears that the new strikes, and Trump's 8 p.m. ET deadline, could heighten already widespread uncertainty and supply issues in global energy markets.

All the conspiracy theorists are stretching so far it’s ridiculous.

The protestor deaths were caused by those who gave the orders and those who pulled the triggers.

Anything else is tinfoil hat stuff.




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That won’t happen unless they are being threatened with the noose.

Hmm

Talk the talk….put up or shut up….time for the show..this is it.

https://youtu.be/aFTTB6gOAJA?si=9rPRrC2XaRfD05Cw

So, that's not awesome.
And yet that same dude, who this morning said about Iran that, "A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back," is now forcing us to have very real conversations about a few hundred kilotons in Tehran. What are we doing, here? I recognize tonight will probably be a nothingburger, but I find the very small chance of a nuke or three upsetting. rick, I respect the hell out of you, and it's clear you have a military resume that'd make most men blush. Talk me off the ledge, here. Is our Commander in Chief gonna be chill?

Edit: It is in fact TACO Tuesday, but this is not rational world leader behavior. The fact that these conversations are being had remains, and so too does my question.

You still haven't learned to never take Trump literally, but always take him seriously?

I mean, he kidnapped the Venezuelan Head of State. He started a war with Iran. He assassinated the Ayatollah. There are many, many other things we could get into – is it really so unbelievable, with as many Yes Men as he has around him, that he'd push the button?

Everyone turned in after a jive Sat night, Oahu Dec 6, ‘41. Less than 6 hours later, a different dawn all over the planet. If not now, it’s chugging right at us just up the tracks.

if you really believed 90 million were gonna be dead, you may want to reconsider the psych evaluation you took to get here.

I saw the “threatening to drop a nuke” talk on MS.Now today also from some congressthems.


Other talking points you omitted :25th amendment, war crimes, lunatic…. You’ve got 15 hrs til they are changed to something else.

He did not "kidnap" the Venezuelan Head of State. He arrested an illegitimate dictator.

He did not start the war with Iran. He set out to finish it.... on our terms.

And yes, it's not just unbelievable that he'd "push the button" - it's ridiculous. I truly wish you people would drop the drama class hysterics and theatrics and get serious, normal, pragmatic, and patriotic.

Then who did start the war with Iran and when did they start it?

For profit forever wars with third worlds who pose no threat to America is “patriotic”? Huh

I take it you mean GWB style “patriotic“, not founding fathers patriotic?

Problem is, whether he was serious or not, that kind of bluster from any head of state is, in fact, unhinged. Yet the people who surround POTUS will never outrightly tell him that because they’d get fired. The “friendly” media outlets immediately find some way to spin it that says “this isn’t as bad as it sounds….in fact, it’s brilliant….4D chess and such. And the base eagerly eats it all up. A shocking percentage of our countrymen have seemingly lost the ability to identify the absurd.