New AA Contract
08-03-2007 | 06:17 PM
#11
La Familia Delta
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 0
From: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
I haven't heard anything other than our lame-a$$ 30.5% pay proposal that came out a few months ago. But to answer your question, the membership will probably settle for an even lamer 15% raise after giving away the farm, based on how many pu$$ies we have working here.
BTW, I'm walking on anything less than a 35% raise.
73
BTW, I'm walking on anything less than a 35% raise.
73
walking? hah i doubt that
08-03-2007 | 08:41 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,949
Likes: 9
08-03-2007 | 08:45 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
From: I was acquired, Not Hired
73,
With respect, I know 1800 furloughed TWA pilots that have anywhere from 7-20 years of service at TWA, that, let's just say, are not sending holiday cards to MEC Lloyd Hill. I think they would be glad to tell the APA to stuff it, and IMHO if the APA asked them to show their loyalty...not wearing hats, trousers, or any other organized labor activity, they'd laugh. In fact, there is talk on the TWA message boards to organize informational picketing against the APA for Capt Hill's position on eliminating Supp CC (the only protection the TWA pilots were afforded during the gang event against them).
Feel free to walk, but just know, 12-13% of your pilot group that was furloughed will be wearing their hats to work. Not because they are pro-management or anti-union, but because; the APA told the TWA pilots that they were K-Mart pilots and they deserved the f%ck$ng they received at the hands of Carl Icahn and from the APA.
My point, maybe Capt. Hill would want to re-think his platform of "lets screw the TWA pilots even more", when he is about to enter a phase of collective bargaining that needs to have pilot group unification. Hey, he is your elected voice, he talks for you, and if not, show him the door.
Remember all those "nice" TWA pilots in STL that were nice because they kept their jobs because they were hired before Carl Icahn raided TWA (mostly Ozark pilots that received DOH when they merged with TWA in 1986), if Supp CC is dissolved by Lloyd Hill, most of them if not all will lose their Capt seat because they won't have the seniority to maintain it because they were slotted starting with our most senior pilot hired in 1961 was given a 1985 seniority date then they were slotted 8 AAs then 1 TW. Instant payraise for the NAAtive side, instant paycut for the red infection.
I'd guess the niceness may wear off.
Regards as always and sincerely, best of luck with negos.
FF
With respect, I know 1800 furloughed TWA pilots that have anywhere from 7-20 years of service at TWA, that, let's just say, are not sending holiday cards to MEC Lloyd Hill. I think they would be glad to tell the APA to stuff it, and IMHO if the APA asked them to show their loyalty...not wearing hats, trousers, or any other organized labor activity, they'd laugh. In fact, there is talk on the TWA message boards to organize informational picketing against the APA for Capt Hill's position on eliminating Supp CC (the only protection the TWA pilots were afforded during the gang event against them).
Feel free to walk, but just know, 12-13% of your pilot group that was furloughed will be wearing their hats to work. Not because they are pro-management or anti-union, but because; the APA told the TWA pilots that they were K-Mart pilots and they deserved the f%ck$ng they received at the hands of Carl Icahn and from the APA.
My point, maybe Capt. Hill would want to re-think his platform of "lets screw the TWA pilots even more", when he is about to enter a phase of collective bargaining that needs to have pilot group unification. Hey, he is your elected voice, he talks for you, and if not, show him the door.
Remember all those "nice" TWA pilots in STL that were nice because they kept their jobs because they were hired before Carl Icahn raided TWA (mostly Ozark pilots that received DOH when they merged with TWA in 1986), if Supp CC is dissolved by Lloyd Hill, most of them if not all will lose their Capt seat because they won't have the seniority to maintain it because they were slotted starting with our most senior pilot hired in 1961 was given a 1985 seniority date then they were slotted 8 AAs then 1 TW. Instant payraise for the NAAtive side, instant paycut for the red infection.
I'd guess the niceness may wear off.
Regards as always and sincerely, best of luck with negos.
FF
Last edited by FliFast; 08-03-2007 at 11:23 PM.
08-04-2007 | 05:30 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 392
Likes: 0
From: B-737
73,
With respect, I know 1800 furloughed TWA pilots that have anywhere from 7-20 years of service at TWA, that, let's just say, are not sending holiday cards to MEC Lloyd Hill. I think they would be glad to tell the APA to stuff it, and IMHO if the APA asked them to show their loyalty...not wearing hats, trousers, or any other organized labor activity, they'd laugh. In fact, there is talk on the TWA message boards to organize informational picketing against the APA for Capt Hill's position on eliminating Supp CC (the only protection the TWA pilots were afforded during the gang event against them).
Feel free to walk, but just know, 12-13% of your pilot group that was furloughed will be wearing their hats to work. Not because they are pro-management or anti-union, but because; the APA told the TWA pilots that they were K-Mart pilots and they deserved the f%ck$ng they received at the hands of Carl Icahn and from the APA.
My point, maybe Capt. Hill would want to re-think his platform of "lets screw the TWA pilots even more", when he is about to enter a phase of collective bargaining that needs to have pilot group unification. Hey, he is your elected voice, he talks for you, and if not, show him the door.
Remember all those "nice" TWA pilots in STL that were nice because they kept their jobs because they were hired before Carl Icahn raided TWA (mostly Ozark pilots that received DOH when they merged with TWA in 1986), if Supp CC is dissolved by Lloyd Hill, most of them if not all will lose their Capt seat because they won't have the seniority to maintain it because they were slotted starting with our most senior pilot hired in 1961 was given a 1985 seniority date then they were slotted 8 AAs then 1 TW. Instant payraise for the NAAtive side, instant paycut for the red infection.
I'd guess the niceness may wear off.
Regards as always and sincerely, best of luck with negos.
FF
With respect, I know 1800 furloughed TWA pilots that have anywhere from 7-20 years of service at TWA, that, let's just say, are not sending holiday cards to MEC Lloyd Hill. I think they would be glad to tell the APA to stuff it, and IMHO if the APA asked them to show their loyalty...not wearing hats, trousers, or any other organized labor activity, they'd laugh. In fact, there is talk on the TWA message boards to organize informational picketing against the APA for Capt Hill's position on eliminating Supp CC (the only protection the TWA pilots were afforded during the gang event against them).
Feel free to walk, but just know, 12-13% of your pilot group that was furloughed will be wearing their hats to work. Not because they are pro-management or anti-union, but because; the APA told the TWA pilots that they were K-Mart pilots and they deserved the f%ck$ng they received at the hands of Carl Icahn and from the APA.
My point, maybe Capt. Hill would want to re-think his platform of "lets screw the TWA pilots even more", when he is about to enter a phase of collective bargaining that needs to have pilot group unification. Hey, he is your elected voice, he talks for you, and if not, show him the door.
Remember all those "nice" TWA pilots in STL that were nice because they kept their jobs because they were hired before Carl Icahn raided TWA (mostly Ozark pilots that received DOH when they merged with TWA in 1986), if Supp CC is dissolved by Lloyd Hill, most of them if not all will lose their Capt seat because they won't have the seniority to maintain it because they were slotted starting with our most senior pilot hired in 1961 was given a 1985 seniority date then they were slotted 8 AAs then 1 TW. Instant payraise for the NAAtive side, instant paycut for the red infection.
I'd guess the niceness may wear off.
Regards as always and sincerely, best of luck with negos.
FF
I have to take exception to your claim that Ozark got DOH, I've known plenty of Ozark guys in my time that see it differently. Anyway, we could probably start an entire thread over it. Of your 1800 furloughed brethren, how many do you think really want to come back? Especially if Supp CC gets trashed (I'm not sure it will).
Besides, I have to think they could do much better somewhere else, with 40 recalls a month, Arpey's shrink the airline to profitability strategy, and age 65 looming that it could be long time before a majority come back.
It's perhaps unfortunate that pilot groups find themselves at each other throats, but until we figure out a way not to merge or come up with some sort of national seniority list, this party is going to continue.
08-04-2007 | 08:30 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
From: At the Blue Line
FliFast, really what is the point? Everyone has an answer to our posts no matter how hard we try to get it through their thick heads! Oh yea and while we are at it.....those poor guys at Reno all got screwed as well! Please!
So let me pay for the TW/OZ merger now....good idea....that'll show me! I was riding a friggen skateboard in high school when that merger happened.
"Besides, I have to think they could do much better somewhere else, "
Where? I have no jet PIC to this day because when TWA hired me the Regionals were just that Regional Airlines! So while I was flying 767s over the Atlantic just a few years ago I can not buy a good job today! It is just not that easy! 25 year old RJ captains are more marketable than I am today....so to answer your question.....I have to go back if I want to make any kind of money as a professional pilot! I wonder if your OZ friends had to go through this back in the mid 80's?
So let me pay for the TW/OZ merger now....good idea....that'll show me! I was riding a friggen skateboard in high school when that merger happened.
"Besides, I have to think they could do much better somewhere else, "
Where? I have no jet PIC to this day because when TWA hired me the Regionals were just that Regional Airlines! So while I was flying 767s over the Atlantic just a few years ago I can not buy a good job today! It is just not that easy! 25 year old RJ captains are more marketable than I am today....so to answer your question.....I have to go back if I want to make any kind of money as a professional pilot! I wonder if your OZ friends had to go through this back in the mid 80's?
08-04-2007 | 08:39 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
From: At the Blue Line
I have never seen this side of you. 
I wish all those so called pu$$ies were there for us when they took our seniority away from us.....maybe we could have gotten a better deal.
Good luck and vote "NO" so I can get a decent paycheck a year from now.
08-04-2007 | 05:58 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,784
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From: I was acquired, Not Hired
Hi Oldfreightdawg,
I guess I'm an old freight dawg also.
Ozark pilots DID get DOH. The entire merger is public knowledge. The Ozark pilots beef with the TWA pilots -in general- is that the TWA pilots were a much more senior group. The trade off was the Ozark pilots got the opportunity to fly widebody aircraft internationally. AND because the OZ pilots were given DOH as opposed to the staple job which would have given them seniority dates of approx 1986, they were able to keep their jobs after the merger with AA.
If you don't believe me, ask any green guy which pilot was #3 on our seniority list in the late 1990s. It was R-squared, who was our VP of Flight Ops..side note:every greenie knows who R-squared is. So OFD, you can see it differently, and I respect that, but if you research the merger you will see they got DOH AND the OZ pilots signed the merger document. I have a lot of green guy friends, but their claim that they were screwed by TWA because they got DOH might be valid, but it was nothing to the career-ending integration given to us by the APA.
OFD, you are absolutely correct in principle. The APA told con man, Don Carty that they didn't want to merge with TWA not to mention have any red tails on the property. Don Carty met with then-MEC, John Darrah and the APA BOD. Darrah served the pilots well, in exchange for not protesting the merger, Darrah was able to get years of service restored for the APA pilots that were furloughed in the mid 90s, able to get a favorable resolution to the $45 million fine levied against the APA for their sickout, and was given free reign by AMR to do with the TWA pilots as they saw fit.
I understand the APA's greed and lust for all of the TWA positions. But there is no reason for the APA to refer to the professionals at TWA as hotdog vendors, kmart pilots that didnt deserve jobs-the jobs at TWA should be given to the APA pilots because the American Airlines pilots were the Saks 5th Ave pilots of the industry. And finally, APA Ed White's famous quote, we screwed you (expletive deleted) because we can. We TWA pilots can put our safety record against that of the AA pilots any day and show we have not had a pilot error fatality since the late 60's. The pilots at AA can not make the same claim, my point is, how can you judge another pilot group so harshly when you dont have the credentials to back it up. TWA pilots bring this point up often, not to trample the dead, but to prove to the APA that we are more than competent.
Are mergers fair ? Usually not.
My first merger was back in 93'...Suburban Airlines/Allegheny Commuter and Penn Airlines. DOH was the method used, and after a few jabs at each other we were all singing Kumbayah because it was handled fairly. So yes it can be done. John Darrah's from the APA used the methodology that if you were hired after Carl Icahn bought TWA, you did not have career plans at TWA and thus should not be given any seniority at the merged American Airlines. OFD, ask any Ozark pilot if they had any career plans after they were merged with TWA in 1986. IF they weren't given DOH, they would have suffered the same career ending integrations as 1800 of the TWA pilots. If you don't believe me, ask around of how many OZ pilots got stapled because they didnt have career plans with TWA..the answer: Zero.
You asked, will the 1800 pilots come back. I'm not sure. Cant answer for them, nor do I have to cross that bridge right now. But I can tell you, most that come back from 4-7 years of furlough are going to want "payback". AMR is not the enemy, it's the APA that put us on the street.
To come full circle with the thread, I do hope the APA gets the best possible contract. However, it's a flaw to their strategy to divide themselves with the red tails. This, in my humble opinion will only serve to weaken their bargaining position at the nego. table. Hopefully professionals like AA73 and others that read/post on this board will influence their union to concentrate on getting everything they can in the Collective bargaining agreement, as opposed to watching managment, once again, enjoy bonuses earned by the employees because they were too distracted by the further cleansing of red tails.
I guess I'm an old freight dawg also.
Ozark pilots DID get DOH. The entire merger is public knowledge. The Ozark pilots beef with the TWA pilots -in general- is that the TWA pilots were a much more senior group. The trade off was the Ozark pilots got the opportunity to fly widebody aircraft internationally. AND because the OZ pilots were given DOH as opposed to the staple job which would have given them seniority dates of approx 1986, they were able to keep their jobs after the merger with AA.
If you don't believe me, ask any green guy which pilot was #3 on our seniority list in the late 1990s. It was R-squared, who was our VP of Flight Ops..side note:every greenie knows who R-squared is. So OFD, you can see it differently, and I respect that, but if you research the merger you will see they got DOH AND the OZ pilots signed the merger document. I have a lot of green guy friends, but their claim that they were screwed by TWA because they got DOH might be valid, but it was nothing to the career-ending integration given to us by the APA.
OFD, you are absolutely correct in principle. The APA told con man, Don Carty that they didn't want to merge with TWA not to mention have any red tails on the property. Don Carty met with then-MEC, John Darrah and the APA BOD. Darrah served the pilots well, in exchange for not protesting the merger, Darrah was able to get years of service restored for the APA pilots that were furloughed in the mid 90s, able to get a favorable resolution to the $45 million fine levied against the APA for their sickout, and was given free reign by AMR to do with the TWA pilots as they saw fit.
I understand the APA's greed and lust for all of the TWA positions. But there is no reason for the APA to refer to the professionals at TWA as hotdog vendors, kmart pilots that didnt deserve jobs-the jobs at TWA should be given to the APA pilots because the American Airlines pilots were the Saks 5th Ave pilots of the industry. And finally, APA Ed White's famous quote, we screwed you (expletive deleted) because we can. We TWA pilots can put our safety record against that of the AA pilots any day and show we have not had a pilot error fatality since the late 60's. The pilots at AA can not make the same claim, my point is, how can you judge another pilot group so harshly when you dont have the credentials to back it up. TWA pilots bring this point up often, not to trample the dead, but to prove to the APA that we are more than competent.
Are mergers fair ? Usually not.
My first merger was back in 93'...Suburban Airlines/Allegheny Commuter and Penn Airlines. DOH was the method used, and after a few jabs at each other we were all singing Kumbayah because it was handled fairly. So yes it can be done. John Darrah's from the APA used the methodology that if you were hired after Carl Icahn bought TWA, you did not have career plans at TWA and thus should not be given any seniority at the merged American Airlines. OFD, ask any Ozark pilot if they had any career plans after they were merged with TWA in 1986. IF they weren't given DOH, they would have suffered the same career ending integrations as 1800 of the TWA pilots. If you don't believe me, ask around of how many OZ pilots got stapled because they didnt have career plans with TWA..the answer: Zero.
You asked, will the 1800 pilots come back. I'm not sure. Cant answer for them, nor do I have to cross that bridge right now. But I can tell you, most that come back from 4-7 years of furlough are going to want "payback". AMR is not the enemy, it's the APA that put us on the street.
To come full circle with the thread, I do hope the APA gets the best possible contract. However, it's a flaw to their strategy to divide themselves with the red tails. This, in my humble opinion will only serve to weaken their bargaining position at the nego. table. Hopefully professionals like AA73 and others that read/post on this board will influence their union to concentrate on getting everything they can in the Collective bargaining agreement, as opposed to watching managment, once again, enjoy bonuses earned by the employees because they were too distracted by the further cleansing of red tails.
Last edited by FliFast; 08-04-2007 at 07:46 PM.
08-04-2007 | 08:46 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,949
Likes: 9
I am not going to contribute to this dead horse. Nice try at opening a can of worms. Flifast, I've had decent conversations with you, but this is one you and your TWA buds can have together.
My contribution to this post is simple, I will vote No to anything less than a 35% raise. I could care less what other pilots think, whether they are AA or TWA or whatever.
Any other discussion matter - especially bringing up the AA/TWA deal - is non relevant. Spin it any way you want, but at least stick to the subject matter.
/R,
73
My contribution to this post is simple, I will vote No to anything less than a 35% raise. I could care less what other pilots think, whether they are AA or TWA or whatever.
Any other discussion matter - especially bringing up the AA/TWA deal - is non relevant. Spin it any way you want, but at least stick to the subject matter.
/R,
73
08-04-2007 | 09:14 PM
#20
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Wow....
Blaming the APA. I'm not sure about that, but I'm on the outside looking in.
It seems to me, regardless of your past, the APA/AA Pilots need to bury this axe and come together and try and move forward as one. This divisive attitude will do nothing but hinder any progress towards a better contract or future. I know there are ****ed off pilots on both sides of this issue....I'm sorry, but what's done is done and time to move forward and do better.
Blaming the APA. I'm not sure about that, but I'm on the outside looking in.
It seems to me, regardless of your past, the APA/AA Pilots need to bury this axe and come together and try and move forward as one. This divisive attitude will do nothing but hinder any progress towards a better contract or future. I know there are ****ed off pilots on both sides of this issue....I'm sorry, but what's done is done and time to move forward and do better.
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