Ohhh baloney sandwiches. You guys could have easily recalled Judas John Darrah which would have sent a message to Ed "We're Saks 5th Avenue pilots" White-head of the merger and acq. committee. To repeat a conversation a 2001 new hire American Airlines pilot had with a friend of mine that worked for TransMeridian at the time....."When we staple all those red guys to the bottom, us new hires will bid to be STL 767 Captains and have their Captains yanking the gear for us". True statement.

A few of our reps insisted on signing the merger document with the APA, within days they were recalled. For the record, the TWA pilots did not sign the merger agreement with the APA. For the record, the Ozark pilots DID sign the merger document with the TWA pilots giving them DOH. AA73 you fly with OZ guys in STL, you can check the accuracy of this statement.

So c'mon, you guys saw a windfall of 2400 pilot seats, upgrades, opportunities at a new base and International routes and authorities that you didnt have beforehand and you guys were going to protest that. Of course not, why pass up an opportunity to gain at the expense of another pilot group....greedy: yes-professional, moral or ethical: no.

Lorenzo, Hulas, Icahn, Ornstein, Wolf, Gangwall, Crandall, and Carty all are well versed in screwing pilot groups. Add the APA to that list.

Every dues paying member has a voice in their union. Why pay dues if your reps aren't doing what you want them to do ???? That is your hard earned money going to support someone else's agenda ????

Absolutely crazy.....

FF

 

Well I only know what I know from nearly 13 years ago when in my opinion ( and i am allowed to have it ) the APA Mainline Union guys promised the world and delivered nothing when it came time to put up or shut up. Result .... yet another crappy contract for the "prop" guys. For nearly a year all they preached was yep you guys are eagle, but we are your Union brothers... well I guess I never saw all that union brotherhood.
My only other observation is that these guys are all suppose to work for the same company ...they are ALL AA pilots yet they talk as if TWA and OZARK still exist.. and thats from guys from both sides. I know nothing of those goings on other than what I have read here. Whats right.. or wrong I dont know.... what I can plainly see is a fractured pilot group. And even if that fracture only represents 15% of the pilots... it cant be healthy.

 

ouch!!!! I don't know if i would go that far. You have to remember, in APA's defense, that AMR is one of the nastiest most labor hostile companies one can work for. APA is very militant to be sure, but they almost have to be to deal with the folks at Centre Port. Bob Crandel anyone.

I flew for eagle long ago and i found AMR very oppressive. We're not happy till your not happy. The beatings will continue until moral improves.

 

One side of his mouth comes out "I love the TWA guys, great group of pilots, and made a lot of great friends".

Then on the other side comes out "I voted for Hill"!!!!!!

AA73 YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING US!!!!!!! You vote for someone thinking they are only bluffing?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Just when I was starting to like you!

Oh please tell us how great of a deal we got, and how all mergers are ugly, and how we did not furlough any captains......oh please tell us oh wise one.

Sorry.....jumping in again! Why do I keep coming back?

 

Recalling John Darrah and Ed White would have simply put someone else in charge who would have done the same exact thing. What you don't understand - since you weren't on AA property when this went down - was that the TWA integration was pretty much concocted and carved in stone from day one between APA, AA and the arbitrator (facilitator) who was the same guy that did the OZ deal in '86.


Exactly - and had you not recalled those TWA pilots who wanted to sign, you would have ended up with a FAR better deal than what you got. True statement. But you recalled them, and got a worse deal. And your new "militant" M/A troops walked out "en masse" from the last M/A meeting, which irked APA to the point where they crafted CC into stone since your boys were so unwilling to negotiate. Not so fast, my friend, the blame lies with both parties here.

We saw no such thing. This is pure fabrication. We saw an exact repeat of what AMR has done in the past: buy an airline, sell all the airplanes and routes, and keep the employees. 9/11 took care of BOTH our AND your employees, but they are now getting recalled. Meanwhile, we've dumped almost the aircraft and most of the routes - wow, great assets we ended up with. Not.

As well as ALPA, and any other union that has screwed another pilot group in the past. Cmon, FF... this is not unique to the APA.

We pay dues to our union to properly represent us as well as getting us a decent contract. There is some stuff that we have no control over. Mergers/acuisitions are one of them. Just ask the AWA/USAir boys and you'll see they had absolutely no influence as well.

No doubt. But it's crazy at any airline, not just AA.

73

 

Excuse me, Nowake, what exactly are you talking about? What in Sam's hell does voting for Hill have to do with liking TWA pilots? Have you gone off the deep end?

How many times do I have to say it: I DO NOT BELIEVE HILL CAN TOUCH CC!!! What are you guys, on crack or something, over there on TWA Pilots.com? I did not vote for Hill based on his views of CC - which was nothing more than campaigning tactics! I voted for Hill because out of all the candidates, he stands out as the best one to get us a decent contract! Can you get that through your skull, or what?

And where did you ever see me saying you guys got a great deal?

Cripes!

 

There is a lot I don't agree with over at APA but, considering the source, 757ER, I'm not surprised you have that view.

What I can tell you is this.... I would much rather have APA bargaining for the sole interests of AA pilots, than ALPA which deals with everyone and their grandmother,representing both regionals AND majors. Talk about a conflict of interest!

However, objectively speaking, I don't think APA is the "poorest excuse" for a union. Yes, they have screwed up in the past, but what union hasn't? We're dealing with a very hostile and different world these days.

And for those of you who disagree with the sickout - you're very quick to criticize the APA when in fact, they were the only ones desperate enough to take a stand against a TOTAL VIOLATION of our scope clause with Reno! That was the best $45M we ever spent (we didn't even spend it, anyway.)

Yes, there's much I don't agree with at APA, but overall, they are not much different than any other union out there.

 

AA73,

To debate your points, I put my points in your quote:

 

Ditto:

[QUOTE]

***If it was carved in stone from day one, doesn't that contradict what you said below about how the APA got irked, yaddah yaddah. The part you mentioned below is an untruth. Like you said above, SUPP CC was concocted once Don Carty gave John Darrah the green light to bulldoze the TWA pilots.[/QOUTE]

The APA got irked because, while they knew from day one how they were going to integrate everyone - by protecting AA pilots first, which is what we pay our union to do - they also didn't come right out and staple 100% of you guys like some other cases/airlines, because they knew that would not be a fair integration. So, since it wasn't going to be a 100% staple, they had to negotiate with you guys - and you guys walked out of the last meeting. That is fact.

***

[qoute]I'm not sure I can believe this. Although speculation on your part. If we had signed, we would have had no recourse both legally and legislatively. Unlike, the Ozark group who later sued TWA, the judge in their case said they had a good case, but his hands were tied since they signed on the dotted line. If we did sign, we would have all been stapled and the reward back in early 2001 would have been a no-furlough clause. When the new contract was signed in the Spring of 2003', the AMR insisted on a 33% paycut (can you imagine what that will do to a 777 Capts paycheck), and few furloughes. The APA countered with a 23% paycut and furloughes to make up the difference. [/qoute]

Believe it, it is not speculation. There was an earlier proposal that had 800 guys stapled instead of 1200, with more guys slotted in at 1:8. Your guys should have signed it but you say you recalled them when they wanted to sign. Then the new guys you brought in wouldn't even negotiate.

***
Wow, 90 out of 186? That number is slowly dwindling. Ask yourself where all those TWA MD80s are ending up. The 39 MD83Gs are GONE by 2010 - those are the last ones off the production line. That leaves, what, 50 older ones? Probably off to Roswell before long. 767s- gone. 717s - gone. Do you see the trend? Reno - gone. Aircal - gone. And employees - well, you can answer that one yourself - 9/11. AA had a crap load of employees that got the ax, too, thanks to 911. Without 9/11, a lot more AA and TWA employees would have remained employed. That is common sense. And the reason only 10% of AA pilots got furloughed is, well, because we did the buying, and we were in a stronger position, and the APA takes care of its own first. How would it look if APA allowed a bunch of TWAers to stay employed while furloughing the bulk of its own dues paying members?


***
I think there's no doubt that ALPA screwed you the hardest by not putting up a fight. If someone bought AA, I would expect my union to fight like hell in negotiating a fair deal. And if they don't, I'd be part of the lawsuit as well.


***
You lost me there. Yes, USAir asked for arbitration - as they should, they are ALPA. But once the process was begun, what kind of influence did the average USAir line pilot have over how things turned out? None. As far as UAL and DAL getting good contracts in the 90s, so did AA - in '97, ours was right there at the top of the payscale. I don't get your point. My voice in the union affects those things it can affect. But if I'm not happy with something I have no control over, what do you suggest I do?


***
It's not crazy right now. But it can turn crazy any second - you know as well as I do that the airline industry is like that. You guys are Teamsters... what if UPS buys out Fedex or someone else with a different union and proposes a staple? How much influence will you have over your union leaders who put it together? Not much, I'd be willing to bet.

That said, I would have loved to have been part of a civilized merger, too. But, like Deez340 said above, we have a nasty battle that we fight with our management. And it's pretty short sighted to blame me, a lowly rank and file line swine, for your troubles with our merger. Frst off, I'm in the minority if I propose that our deal is unfair. They'd laugh their a$$ off at me. Second, even if we were to have recalled Darrah/White, someone else would have come right in and continued the gang bang. That was the nature of the beast. I'm typing my a$$ off trying to agree with you that the process was unfair, while pointing out certain facts that really did happen, contrary to the TWA propaganda machine that feeds you guys certain b.s.- but you can't seem to understand me.

 

Sorry, I need to go to [QUOTE} school! ... some of it got quoted and some did not.