Livin the Dream and NoWake: Again, you both direct your anger at me personally, while I try and walk the fine line between debating the issue at hand while at the same time acknowledging the value your airline's pilots brought to AA.

It seems like you guys have an issue with me admitting the fact that I didn't agree with the PROCESS of how we integrated the pilots, while at the same time you accuse me of sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. Not realizing that our relationship with the APA leadership is very different from the relationship ALPA pilots have with their MEC, and that it is very much a "good ol boys club" where, if you are in the minority, you get laughed at for suggesting a recall or whatever. You immediately presume I'm a hypocrite for saying that, as if I'm snickering in the background saying "Suckers." Well, think what you want. Those that know me well know I'm not that type of person. I'm genuine and I believe in treating others the way I wish to be treated.

What happens in this case is simple: I'm being judged because of the actions of my union - actions that you folks will never agree with. So because of that, you automatically associate any AA pilot - regardless of his good intentions - as being a Scab, Nazi, or whatever you call us, simply because HIS union engaged in an integration that ended up unfair for many pilots. In much the same way that AA pilots hired after the ALPA-APA split in the 60s were unnecessarily judged for the actions of their union they had NO CONTROL OVER! (they weren't even on the property!)

You say I'm putting an untrue spin on the actions of the APA. I merely quote what I've learned, from my sources at AA AND TWA pilots. Some of these are true facts, and some may be inaccurate, depending on the source. What I do know is this - I write this stuff not to anger you guys, but to try and bring some form of logic to what happened. And you guys take this stuff I write and label me, prejudge me, whatever, saying that I'm guilty as charged for stuff I HAD NO CONTROL OVER. That's extremely short sighted, and since you guys never worked for American and faced the controversial, peculiar battle we fight with our Mgt and our own union, you'll never understand. The average AA line pilot has very little say over what happens at APA headquarters - MUCH UNLIKE the MEC level at ALPA. You guys came from an MEC that collaberated with a reasonable Mgt and emphasized communications between the two. We could only be so lucky to have that. We don't. And this is the root of the miscommunication we're having here.

When you folks can finally understand that fact, then we may have some light at the tunnel. Until then, we'll have to agree to disagree on many subjects. But I've maintained my professionalism throughout. I've refrained from calling you inferior pilots- because you're not - and I've refrained from saying that you guys got a great deal - because several of you didn't - and I've clearly admitted that the process by which we integrated you guys was unfair - because it was. Anytime a union imposes an integration on another group, that process clearly removes some degree of fairness from the whole deal. Arbitration is the true fair way, and we should've submitted to it. But once again, I never got to vote on it. And I wouldn't have had any luck trying to impose a recall of the leadership, because believe me folks, I'm very much in the minority at AA with that train of thought.

And finally, like I've said earlier, this integration won't be the first or last ugly one. When two different unions are involved, the one buying calls the shots, and in many cases, unfairly so. What can we do about it, short of a national seniority list or everyone joining ALPA?

Livin the Dream, I genuinely wish you the best in your new career, and am glad you have the resources to not come back to this train wreck. Same for you, NoWake. I'm sorry if we have to disagree on a lot of these terms, but that's the nature of the beast. The important thing in my mind is that we're able to do it on a professional level, even though you'll probably still accuse me of having a double standard - of which I most definitely don't - but whatever makes you feel better, man.

I wish you guys the best.

/R
73

 

They did, because they could. I think Lorenzo would be proud.

UPS pilots are not represented by the Teamsters.

Many of the TWA aircraft are not currently flying, because they are sitting in Tulsa with no engines.

Rather than wish us the best, don't sell us down the river in the contract talks...that would be a good starter.

FF

 

AMR bought TWA....not the pilot group or the APA. So here does "the one buying calls the shots" come from? Why should we as a professional group "eat our own"? The pilot group should have looked out for its priers rather than look for a way to screw them. This is an absolute disgrace! It is also what has become of our country......somewhere doesn't it say "all men are created equal"? Wasn't this the foundation of what our great national was founded on? But yet everyday people are being striped of what they have earned and worked hard for. (not just in aviation but everywhere!)

I am going to step away once again, because these boards and topics have a tendency to stress me out. Until I am stupid enough to return again fly safe everyone.

 

See, that's what I mean about no matter what I say, I get beaten down. So screw you too, FF. I've tried being nice, professional, whatever, and I get a faceful of egg. Maybe you should direct your quote to the union leadership, not the rank and file.

Acknowledging best wishes from a fellow pilot, that's also a good starter. But maybe you're not capable of that kind of behavior.

I'm outta here. It really is no use debating with you guys.

73

 

I agree. And apparently, it happens in every merger, not just ours. Maybe the AWA pilots and the arbitrator could have used some of that advice regarding USAir pilots? Hmmm....

Later boyz,
73

 

"Thong Tuesday"? Count me in! Where's the link???

Still looking for that job that will allow me to blow off AA when they call next year...

 

IPA, right FF? Does that stand for "India Pale Ale"?

 

I can speak for myself and possibly AA73 here.
Why I voted for Lloyd hill and not the other nimcompoop
is this:
I voted for change, not the status quo. Hunter is not the man for the job.
I did not totally agree with Hill in every campaign issue.

I mainly had a disagreement with ANY changes to Supp CC.
I have heard both sides of the story. I feel TWA folks got
a totally raw deal. AMR and everyone else should be ashamed
of the treatment of the AA/TWA deal.

The most impressive item I have seen is the TWA people I work with and
their attitude. Yes they got a crap samich. It tasted lousy then and hasn't
gotten any better with age.

The TWA folks I know are the UPMOST PROFESSIONALS I have ever met
in any of the last 3 decades I have been working. ( not all at AA)

These folks come to work with a smile and a SUPERB ATTITUDE.

They could be a real jackass if they wanted to, yet they stand proud
with their AA uniform and do a terrific job here.

There really is not any fighting here that I see.
Everybody is in the same boat and we all paddle together.

As for my vote for new APA prez, ABSOLUTELY I would vote again same
ballot. Hill wanted all the votes so he said what the natives wanted to hear.

"to hell with supp CC I will make everyone a Captain"

Supp CC might as well be the 11th commandment here.

It will remain as it stands today for at least 5 years.

Way to many worms if that can is opened.
I feel 100% of that .

 

Why bother, av8r, no matter how much you agree with those guys, you will always be a scumbag in their eyes.

I've tried being reasonable, professional, understanding - it's all for naught. Similar to a 3 year old throwing a temper tauntrum, no matter how much you try and reason with them, they will just never get it.

Thanks for being professional about it.

And thanks to the TWA pilots I know and am good friends with who are also professional.

/r,
73

 

757,

You're exactly right....lol.


AA73, don't go away mad.

The stressful posts that have gone back and forth are between NAAtives on the property and former TWA pilots that were adversely harmed from the merger. I think that is an objective observation.

To come full circle with the thread's subject...You post many times that you have the utmost respect and friendship with the TWA pilots that you have flown with in STL. Most of those folks are Ozark pilots that have retained their Capt. seat because they were given DOH in their merger with TWA in 1986. Second, Lloyd Hill campaigned for his current position of APA Master Exec. Chairman under the platform of the elimination of Supp CC. If successful, he will eliminate the protection that will allow "your friends" to retain their Capt seats. If Lloyd is successful all of your "friends" will become just as angry as us...I guarantee you that.

Now, if Lloyd's platform of dissolve Supp CC was just a ploy to get votes, but had no intent to fiddle with it..then why, I ask you why, would you want your voice and dues money be represented by a liar...This nego, IMHO is a critical crossroads for the pilots of the APA. If you believe that American Airlines avoided BK because the employees gave at the office and the TWA pilots careers were flushed down the toilet, then this contract nego should be critical to recapaturing some of the sacrifices that have helped AMR realize profits and management AWARDED THEMSELVES WITH BONUSES. And you guys are going to be led by 1. A hatchet man or 2. A liar.

I have to admit, I like Av8r's position on the matter. Hopefully, true to his word that the NAAtives are realizing that 10% of their pilot group is the red infection and working with them is better than handing managment a divided and soon-to-be conquered pilot group.

Like REGHI said, postings ago, what is done is what is done. What is most critical is how the APA as a whole handles the elimination of Supp CC. Show the industry of how you handle fellow co-workers.

Finally, if the average Joe has no say in his/her union why did the hats off rally have such a good attendance...because there are strength with numbers. If every average Joe felt they had no say, they wouldnt have shown up...give you and your union some credit that you can shape policy at your airline. The choice is yours.....if Hill doesnt represent your interests...toss him back.


I'll give you the last word................