The senior guys that remained after the early retirement buyout (the FERB), were almost all Ozark guys, why ? because they got DOH...

The entire TWA training command, Chief Pilots office and senior capts were almost all OZ, green guys. Whoever told you the OZ guys got stapled, sold you a bag of goods. Tubb, Roberts, Mason, Horan, all very senior TWA guys, all OZ guys.

 

AA73,

I will have to beg to differ on your categorization of SWAPA "not bending over backwards" for the Muse/Transtar pilots "back in 86." SWAPA offered them integrated seniority and their ALPA MEC (3-4 guys) rejected it without the Transtar pilots voting on it. They thought they could do better and the next week Herb shut Transtar down! Oops!

If some of your other references in this thread as to how SWAPA has treated other pilots in a merger situation was about the Morris pilots in '93 then here is the true story. The Morris pilot's did not have a union representing them and they were in a bad bargaining position. Herb wanted them all to interview including some who had been fired/turned down by SWA. Fact is SWAPA was approached by an ad hoc group of Morris pilots to plead their case with Herb. With the Morris pilots agreement to go to the bottom of the list SWAPA went to Herb and convinced him to take them all with the requirement of a one year probation. They all stayed at their current pay rate until the SWA pay rates caught up with them. SWAPA saved everyones hide including those who got a second chance at SWA.

Your reference to a fictitious SWA/TWA merger and where the TWA pilots would have ended up with regards to seniority is plain conjecture designed to reflect APA's responsibility for where the TWA folks wound up on your seniority list.

P.S. Some of those same pilots who agreed to go to the bottom of the list later were involved in a lawsuit claiming SWAPA took "advantage" of them. The judge threw out the case claiming it had "no merit" and all the Morris pilots upgraded in approximately 5 years. A much better deal than the Muse/Transtar pilots got because of their ALPA MEC's greed.

 

Hi FF,

I don't believe that Hill is going to mess with CC. As I mentioned a while earlier, he "talked the big talk" as part of his campaign to get elected... but in the end, messing with CC subjects the APA to a massive DFR dilemma.

I voted for Hill in the end because we needed someone more radical than Hunter, who was willing to fight to restore the profession where it belongs. Never did I ever factor in CC as part of my vote. IMO, CC should be left alone since it protects the career expectations of the TWA pilots it was designed to protect... a.k.a. live by the deal you sign.

I for one do not want ANY red tail cleansing going on, and will fight it if I have to. We are all AA pilots in this together.

Oscar the grouch, I simply posted what I knew about Muse/Transtar/Morris, based on a couple of ex Transtar pilots in my crashpad last year who filled me in. Obviously, their opinions were marred by emotion (as is always the case, two sides to a story and a whole lotta emotions involved!) So if I'm a little inaccurate, that's why. I guess in the end, pointing out the result of a SWA/TWA deal is pointless since nobody will ever know how it would turn out. However, SWAPA, like APA, does tend to gravitate towards stapler mergers based on past events. (And who wouldn't want to be tacked on to the SWA list, anyway!?) This is the way it usually happens bewteen an ALPA/non ALPA merger/acquisition.

Regards to all (and a nice professional debate, thanks guys)
73

 

aa73 I admire your professionalism and it was nice to see that SWA pilots have the true story of their happenings as well. I see it as a horse with blinders on . . . you only see what is projected and judge your own opinions. Take the blinders off and TWA could have seen the horse carriage (Carty) behind us and we could have started bucking. I still have my beautiful tote bag and hat that AMR spent money on to "sell" the aquisition. Fli Fast do you remember it? "Two great airlines one great future" Man, I'm still full from the koolaide and shrooms that were dealt at the TWA overhaul base in Kansas City! Dude . . . where's my car???

Once again, vote down the payraise. Remember, inflation numbers. So the longer it takes the better off management is. It's not rocket science, folks. I give you a 30% payraise five years down the road, big deal. You forgot to make it retroactive opening of section 6. OOOOPS!

Meanwhile, watch Carty at Virgin America. You can already see some stuff with the salaries an upgrade on merits only to be a first year Captain when you do. Come on guys grow some things that takes a red rider wagon to carry around. And I'm not talking about the B.S. shrooms that are feeders from the "two great airlines one great future" farm, either.

Polar is hiring if anyone wants to have fun and fly the whale. That's what it's all about anymore. No, I can't recommend anyone that I have not flown with or know personally as I want this place to work. Don't come over here and get the 400 type and jump ship. DHL is going to be a work in progress.

 

I know you guys are trying to be cordial here but come on. We are dealing with a guy who says that he believes we got screwed but did make much of an effort is any to stop the screw job. Now he says that he wants to be one big happy family but he still voted for Hill. There comes a time when you need to start doing the right thing instead of saying one thing and doing another. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. All the talk on this board form the APA types is just smoke and mirrors, just like it's been all along. Just because someone isn't yelling doesn't mean they are trying to see your viewpoint or work with you to find a better solution. As long as the supposedly "friendly" types vote for reps like Hill, continuing the cycle of hate and division, there won't be any unity, local or national. I'm ready and willing to stand with any union brothers and sisters who are sincere about unity. That sentiment is not ever going to come from the APA or AA.

 

As an outsider the telling points are that the AA pilots, the TWA pilots and the Ozark pilots are still referred to as that. The union should be for the good of all and if its fractured not along a yes or no vote but on where the pilots came from, then thats not a united union.

 

Would you care to elaborate on just how much influence you think I, or any AA pilot for that matter, had on the bearing of our acquisition?

I just love hearing about you guys complaining that "AA pilots stood by and did nothing while we got screwed...." What, exactly, do you suggest a pilot group do during a merger? What did the AWA pilots do for the USAir guys during their "screwing?" What did the DAL guys do during the Pan Am screw job?

You talk the big talk and pretend that we had influence over the outcome. Here is a news flash for you - pilot groups have absolutely ZERO influence in the outcomes of integrations. ZERO. The only people who decide integrations are a) the M/A comittee (mergers/acquisitions) who put together the integrations, and b) a neutral arbitrator (ALPA) or judge (independent union) who rules on it. The rest of us are flying kites. Nobody votes on it. We can ***** and moan about the outcome, vote out the current union president, or MEC, or whatever - doesn't change a thing. You should know these things, but I believe you are emotionally scarred by the event and as such you let those emotions get in the way of facts. And that is completely understandable - but the truth shall set you free. And the truth is, pilot groups are at the mercy of their M/A comittees and in the end, the arbitrator and/or judge.

/r
73

 

FF,

Thanks for clarifying, admittedly I am a bit ignorant on this. It is more complicated than I had originally believed. I will be following this more closely....

Best of luck to all AA pilots going forward with their contract negotiations. I feel as though a new bar may be set with this contract for all airline pilots (hopefully a higher, better one).

 

Herc,

Your posting has the most significance to this thread. Your observations indicate that there are fractures within the pilot group at American Airlines.

Although AA73 may disagree, the APA is not the only union representing the pilots of American Airlines. The AICA union has realized a large influx of TWA pilots as a result of their disgruntlement with the Allied Pilots Union (APA).

Herc, can you or anyone else name any airline that has two pilot unions representing their pilots ??? Yes, there were unions specific to Flight Engineers only back in the day, but that's not the point here.

The APA has masterfully lost sight of the "good of the airline pilot" with it's greed and lust. The sickout ten years ago, the integration with TWA, and some of it's other shenadigans with the Eagle Pilots just shows that mis-mangement isn't limited to airline executives.

 

No doubt about it. APA is the poorest excuse for a 'union' I've ever heard of.